Open Discussion

[James H. Fetzer]

Sandy has suggested that we have a space for open discussion of topics that may be off-topic. That's fine with me. Let's see if the "Discussion" option will serve that purpose. Please give it a shot. Jim

[sandy rose]

yeah, ain't we kooky!   at least it shows that the criminals still

see us as at least some sort of "threat", since they keep trying

to prove us wrong.   it was probably laughable, what the supposed

'forensic investigators' had to say.  they musta had to try pretty

hard to disprove the ol' inside job.  i hope they were paid nicely.

       hope to see you soon at other list, Jim might need your address

since i don't have it..   that is, of course, iffen you are interested.  thanks!@

 

 

[Mark E. Smith]

I'm interested in that mysterious "other list." Any chance I might qualify?

[sandy rose]

that wouldn't bother me a bit, i believe you are one of us,

(and i certainly don't necessarily believe that of everyone on

this group..)      you are on to the planes hoax(es)  and all that,?

 i know you have

been a regular contributor here..   you might ask Jim about it.

if it was up to me i'd invite a few folks from this group.  i'm

not entirely sure who has the 'say' in who gets on. 

     (i hope it was ok to even mention it here.)

 

 

.  

      

[James H. Fetzer]

Well, that's just a small list derived from a large one that has now been going in circles for some time and degenerated into amateurish discussions of the assassination of JFK.  Let me give this more thought. We haven't done anything yet.

[Mark E. Smith]

Right, Sandy. I don't believe in magic planes or magic bullets. If it takes magic to explain something, it wasn't explained.

 

Jim, I'm reading Phillip F. Nelson's book laying out the case that LBJ was behind the JFK assassination, and it is an interesting read. I've only just started, but so far the author doesn't seem to need magic as a way to explain anything, so it's more plausible than the government "investigations."

 

[sandy rose]

as Jim said,  the other list(s) is(are) not going smoothly!  ya get a couple

of morons on there trying to distract, and a couple of other people

who do all the talking, and good folks who should be on the list

getting deleted regularly.....    the basic

idea is great, with the right people on there, and there are a bunch

more out there that would be good on something like that, also....

perhaps Brian, Dean, Danny, etc..

'we' can always back up and start over with a new list.     of course

changes always seem to occur from different people.  i wouldn't

give up on it tho, the idea is good and it was great for a while.

some very great folks on the same list, it can be very good.  (of

course some very great folks who are on the same page on the 'planes',

'naturally'  you will have the nosies/and worse trying to fork it up, right?)

 

 

 

[sandy rose]

i likin this from clg! 

     and the day before decade 9/11.  whoa.

 

Seize DC: Citizens For Legitimate Government

April 25, 2011 by legitgov

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SEIZE DC! 

Citizens for Legitimate Government, http://www.legitgov.org/ (CLG) calls for protest – SEIZE DC!
 

SEIZE DC will begin on September 10, 2011, at noon, until finished.
 

Why SEIZE DC?

Endless, illegal, murderous and bankrupting war abroad; endless, brutal and bankrupting attacks on the vast majority at home—this is what we protest.

Ten years ago, with the illegitimate installation of Bush as "president," Citizens for Legitimate Government made it its mission to expose the coup and to oppose the Bush occupation of the White House. We predicted that the installation of Bush was merely the precursor to an era of illegal and undemocratic undertakings on the part of the U.S. government--policies that had begun at home and that would extend across the globe. Unfortunately, we were right. And we were right to say that this era would not and has not ended with Obama. In fact, it continued unabated and gained in intensity. 

In 2008, we witnessed a supposed change of guard with the election of Barack Obama. But even before the election took place, we suggested that Obama, rather than being an agent for change, was in fact a cleverly constructed mirage to enable the financial, corporate and military oligarchy to continue on the same course, in fact, to do so with without the degree of opposition that was building to the Bush regime. What we have witnessed is not ‘change you can believe in,’ but, where Obama and most Democrats in Congress are concerned, belief you can change.

From Bush to Obama, we have seen not a change in policies, not a reversal, not even a 'failing' to change course, but the exact opposite: a determined continuation, extension and increase of the very same policies.

Rather than an end to imperialist wars, we have witnessed the increase in scope and the extension of war into other countries. Rather than two wars, we now have four.

Rather than policies favouring 'Main Street' as promised, we have witnessed the unprecedented transfer of wealth into the coffers of the banks, corporations and military contractors. We have seen record corporate profits while social misery for the working classes continues to rise, with unemployment not seen since the Great Depression and record home foreclosures. We now have austerity imposed on the vast majority while those who caused the financial crisis with wars, bailouts and corruption, pay little or no taxes and enjoy record profits.

Instead of restoring civil liberties, we have seen their further erosion with the extension of the Patriot Act, the increase of surveillance on the web, and a declaration by the president of the right to assassinate American citizens without any legal sanction whatsoever.

Indefinite detentions have not only continued under Obama, but he has also made sure that proven innocence is no cause for release.

This is but a short summary of the reasons for SEIZE DC!

How to SEIZE DC?

We protest "peacefully," although not passively. We do not accept marching orders. This is how we protest.

For 10 years, we have witnessed the absolute formalization of protests—the seeking of permits, the placing in quarantined zones, the appropriation of 'free speech' and the pro forma 'right to dissent,' treated as a purely formal and meaningless expression. We say, enough! We need no permission to free speech or the right of assembly. We seek no one’s permission and will not have our protest cordoned off from and made irrelevant to the functioning of a murderous and tyrannical oligarchy. We will not be corralled or controlled. Our protest is a seizure of DC, by which we mean an attempt to seize the attention of the city and the nation so that its policies of seize and destroy may end.

More details on the protest schedule to follow soon.

[Mark E. Smith]

It says, "But even before the election took place, we suggested that Obama, rather than being an agent for change, was in fact a cleverly constructed mirage...."

 

Maybe Michael Rectenwald did, although I didn't see it, but Lori Price and CLG supported Obama and encouraged people to vote for him. I emailed her several times and, unable to find any other reason to justify supporting a candidate who was openly pro-war, pro-bailout, had a virtually identical Senate voting record to that of McCain, and had the same big corporate donors, Lori told me that Obama was "going to save the polar bears." It was only long after the election, when it became clear that Obama cared more about drilling for oil than about polar bears, that Lori began to criticize him. 

If Seize DC is successful a record number of people will protest, hundreds or even thousands of them will be cordoned off and arrested by the police (some will be beaten and win lawsuits eight to ten years later), Hillary and Obama will make the usual statements about not allowing public opinion to influence their policy decisions, the protesters who haven't been arrested will go home, next year they will vote for a Green, Libertarian, or other third party candidate instead of voting for the Democrat, and a year later, when they see that nothing has changed, they will organize another protest.

 

Our government's sole claim to legitimacy is that it holds elections and manages, by spending billions of dollars getting out the vote, to gain the consent of approximately 50% of the governed. If you vote, your vote is your consent to be governed not by the candidate(s) you voted for, but by whoever wins the election and the system within which they sought power by running for office.

 

You can't oppose corporatism, imperialism, and fascism if you keep consenting to it. The only way you can effectively oppose it, is to stop voting to grant it your consent. Once you withdraw your consent from it, you can fight the system instead of having to fight yourself and protest your own vote.

When you start to peel an onion, it can bring tears to your eyes. But there is more than just one layer to an onion and if you can fight through the tears to finish peeling back all the layers, you'll find there is nothing inside. The layers of bureaucracy are there to keep us from realizing the truth--that there is nothing more to our government than its layers of bureaucracy, and that their purpose is to divert our attention from our big business and wealthy rulers. They are not inside the bureaucracy, they control it from outside and above it. That's where our attention should be focused.

 

If Lori and CLG have finally become disillusioned with the Democrats, next year she'll be urging people to vote for a Green, Libertarian, or other third party candidate. But even if that candidate wins the popular vote it is very unlikely that the Electoral College, Congress, and the Supreme Court would allow them to take office, and even if they did take office, they wouldn't have enough support in Congress to get anything done.

 

Think of the puppet government in DC as the complaint department of a large corporation. When they don't respond to customer complaints, the customers can protest and sit in or occupy their offices and get arrested, but it won't change the decisions of the Board of Directors. Meanwhile the angry customers are still purchasing the corporation's products, the corporation is still profitable, and the angry customers don't understand that as long as the corporation is profitable, it has no incentive to respond to their demands. The complaint department exists to deal with the public so that the Board of Directors doesn't have to be bothered.

There's a very good essay that was posted on a Libertarian website some years back,"My Son: Klan Reformer" http://www.strike-the-root.com/71/molyneux/molyneux3.html

But the essay doesn't go far enough. The Libertarians are also a political party seeking power within the same essentially evil system as the Democrats, Republicans, Greens, and every other political party. This sentence from that essay contains the truth: "The abolitionists, on the other hand, knew that slavery could not be reformed, that it was evil through and through, and that it had to be abolished. And their most dangerous opponents were not those who were unabashedly pro-slavery. Their most dangerous opponents were the reformers."

Our system is evil through and through, and voters and protesters are reformers, not revolutionaries. It is also important to note that the reformers are less evil than those who support the status quo, and that when the Soviet Communists in WWII identified the German reformists as the biggest obstacle to revolution and proceeded to attack them, they helped pave the way for the Nazi takeover. However in our case we've already had a fascist takeover. Our government already openly operates on behalf of big business, already openly engages in wars of aggression, already openly tortures people it knows to be innocent of any crime, and has already openly exempted itself from international law. So we don't have to worry about a fascist takeover, we have to recognize that it has already taken place, stop enabling it, stop accommodating to it, withdraw our consent from it, and start opposing it. That's something that reformers can't do. They believe that our system is fundamentally good and just needs a few tweaks here and there. They don't want to oppose fascism, they want to participate in it so that they can gain power within it, in hopes of reforming it. Our friends, the fascism reformers. ;)

[Thoth II]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RTRKQkoQHg&feature=related

 

You might want to check out youtube for clips of the classic "THX 1138" with Robert Duvall and Donald Pleasance, to compare with 1984 .  

 

1984 : quotes vs. today world, makes me think they followed Orwell’s book as a blueprint: (or do I have it backwards, was Orwell shown the playbook?)

 

• "The thought police would get him just the same. He had committed--would have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper--the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you."

 

How many ways does this society control and channel thought?  Look at all the commercial ads, look at the MSM.  I heard one parole board tell an inmate : “ when did you realize that that wasn’t the correct way to think?”, and this inmate was being chastised about a certain political philosophy they held that motivated a murder.  No one condones murder, but I strongly object to people being told what is the correct way to think by officers of the court, anyone’s hairs should stand up over that.  

 

• "People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: vaporized was the usual word."

 

From Lee Oswald, to detainees at Gitmo, to the victims of 911, they were all “disappeared” .

 

• "Parsons was Winston's fellow employee at the Ministry of Truth. He was a fattish but active man of paralyzing stupidity, a mass of imbecile enthusiasms-one of those completely unquestioning, devoted drudges on whom, more even than on the thought police, the stability of the Party depended."

 

From Karl Rove to Janet Napolitano, there are many employees at the Ministry of Modern Truth.

 

• "And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed-if all records told the same tale-then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'"

 

How many, many ways they’ve done this from the myths of Lee Owald and 911 through today’s lie about bin Laden.  

 

• "Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct; nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary."

 

I would say Obama’s being congratulated by the likes of Condi Rice and W this week is a good example of the past being brought up to date, they do it daily to suit their needs.  

 

• "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought?... Has it ever occurred to you, Winston, that by the year 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who could understand such a conversation as we are having now?... The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact, there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking-not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

 

Interesting he picked the year 2050.  It could have been even 2020.  Orthodoxy means not thinking is what rules society today.  People are just like parrots, parroting out what they’ve been told.  They never stop and think about who is telling them. 

 

• "It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in any public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could give you away. A nervous tic, an unconscious look of anxiety, a habit of muttering to yourself--anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to wear an improper expression on your face...; was itself a punishable offense. There was even a word for it in Newspeak: facecrime..."

 

This is basically the case in many situations in this police state, and is getting worse all the time.  For example, all I’d have to do to get “disappeared down a black hole “ is do something like Mau Dib did, or even something more minor than that.  

 

• "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
•  

Many people are unconscious zombies.

 

•  "In Oceania at the present day, Science, in the old sense, has almost ceased to exist. In Newspeak there is no word for 'Science.' The empirical method of thought, on which all the scientific achievements of the past were founded, is opposed to the most fundamental principles of Ingsoc."

 

Science did cease to exist in both JFK and 911.  Science is not what is behind today’s discourse.  

 

• "Oceania has no capital, and its titular head is a person whose whereabouts nobody knows."

 

The oligarchs are well hidden and manipulating the elected government like puppets today.  They use hired guns to do their dirty work from intel ops to attorneys to lobbyists.  

 

[sandy rose]

hey, group.  how appalling is this on a scale of 1 to incredibly appalling?..

whoops, wait, don't 'we' already do this?   yet, seeing it in print does make

one want to barf.  and yeah, i know, telling cawngriss anything is like

trying to reason with a cesspool, but still a nice opportunity to chew them

a new one or ten.   yeah, i know, may 11th, the swine probably already

gave themselves the power, because, well, they felt like it, but it's never

too late to get your two cents in with these sad faced clowns.   oh, and

if you sign, please set them straight on osommy and 9/11, kay?  

 

 

Dear Sandy, The time is now to restore respect for the Constitution. Tell Congr... They have to be kidding. Congress is about to vote on worldwide war authority. This was long on the Bush administration's wish list. Now, a few top congressional insiders see an opportunity to sneak it in to a "must pass" piece of legislation: the Defense Authorization bill. This expanded war authority would give the president — any president — the power to use military force, whenever and however he or she sees fit. It would essentially declare a worldwide war without end. It is shocking that Congress is entertaining such legislation at a time when many are looking to see an end to escalating conflict and abuses of power in the name of fighting terrorism. Tell your representative to oppose any new and expanded war authori... This new legislation could commit the United States to a worldwide war without clear enemies, without any geographical boundaries, and without any boundary relating to time or specific objective to be achieved. Unlike the legislation that authorized the Afghanistan War and the pursuit of Osama bin Laden, the proposed new and expanded authorization to go to war does not require a specific threat of harm to the United States. With the bill moving through the House this week and a potential vote later this month, we must make our opposition known today. Tell Congress that a blank check on war isn't just unnecessary — it... This greater war authority first surfaced when George Bush was president. With your help, we opposed it then. And we're opposing the more expansive version of it circulating in Congress right now — because no president should have the power to single-handedly commit America to war without any checks or balances. The time is now to restore respect for the Constitution. We must put an end to the notion that we can't be safe without sacrificing our freedom. Don't let Congress give the executive branch a virtual blank check ... Thank you for standing with us. Sincerely, Laura W. Murphy Director, ACLU Washington Legislative Office P.S. Without any opposition, this proposal could pass unnoticed. That's why we need your help today.© ACLU, 125 Broad Street, 18th Floor, New York, NY 10004

 

[Thoth II]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qIheFFxt4s

 

this is an interesting radio program with George Knapp showing the extent to which some Americans are going to escape USA.  If people hadn't been such sheep and called them on it starting with the phony Warren Commission, none of this would have been necessary.  

[sandy rose]

sorry to induce gagging...

 

Dear Friend,

It was bad enough that George W. Bush as president dragged us into a
disastrous war in Iraq.

But what he'd had sweeping powers during his administration to make war
anywhere in the world without the consent of Congress? It's what Dick
Cheney dreamed of, and it's on the verge of becoming an all-too real
nightmare.

Congress will soon vote on a "sleeper provision" hidden inside defense
legislation currently pending before Congress. If passed it would be what
the ACLU describes as "the single biggest grant of unchecked war authority
from Congress to the executive branch in modern American history."

I just signed a petition telling Congress not to give unchecked power to
wage war without end to future presidents, including the next President
Bush! I hope you will too.

There's more information and an easy way to sign the petition at the link
below.

http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/mccain_mckeon/?r_by=21228-19821...