Open Discussion

[James H. Fetzer]

Sandy has suggested that we have a space for open discussion of topics that may be off-topic. That's fine with me. Let's see if the "Discussion" option will serve that purpose. Please give it a shot. Jim

[Thoth II]

Thoth II: This is not about Jesse's book but about a forthcoming episode of "Conspiracy Theory" on TruTV in which he dismantles the official account of the assassination of JFK. I was featured in the program and had a role in its production. Since I have done so much on JFK, perhaps they might want to feature a rebuttal. Jim

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2010/09/19

that is a summary of David Aaronovitch's dreary 3 hour performance on coast to coast this sunday. I think he was set up to try to counteract the popularity of Jesse Ventura's latest CT book. This guy spouted off the whole laundry list of logical fallacies they've thrown at CTers that are familiar to most of those reading this forum. Again, their tactic seems to be the usual kicking up dust to neutralize all the good research that has been done on JFK, 911, etc., and again, lump all CTers into one tin-foil hatted umbrella, when of course each subject must be research in great detail by experts in the appropriate fields. He unbelievably even implied that the magic bullet theory was valid, and that really is all the further you have to go with this guy. Us JFKers have heard it all before for 50 years. But why in the heck is CTC promoting the book like Voodoo History? Fortunately, I don't think this will neutralize Jesse's book, no one knows this guy while everyone knows Jesse.

[Lee Cahalan]

Thoth II said:

"When we look at the Military Industrial Complex or even the Republican Party we see a very high incidence of sexual predation against children."
I wish this wasn't true, but from what I heard about 5 years ago, you might very well be correct. I don't see a lot written about this taboo subject, but it absolute creeps me out . What a world we inhabit where the most vile, evil rule the world, worse than any Ian Fleming drama about Blofeld lasering the world or anything, the truth is far creepier.

Have posted this before elsewhere. Is worth a look if you can hold your nose at the same time. A search of any on this list should produce a link showing a CONVICTION of child molestation or kiddie porn type laws. I truly believe that with this list we can hypothesize that the reason the GOP walks in lockstep is due to powerful monied interests holding the goods on them.

Or pardon me for going there: Offering the "goods". Carrot and the stick. Sick behavior rewarded and also used as blackmail.

We're just not seeing numbers anywhere near this from the Democratic Party. Perhaps one or two like Democrat Neil Goldschmidt former mayor of Portland. But even there his behavior, while wrong did not result in a conviction. Also the young person he had an affair with was fairly close to the age of consent.

With these GOP FREAKS? They're (sorry to put it this way) raping their own six year old sons and daughters. Seemingly in a regular tendency.

The following isn't my own list. That one is on a computer that needs work. Incidentally, when i first started compiling my own list three GOP party leaders committed suicide after being convicted on child molestation charges. Made me re-write the list... All during the time I was putting the list together!!! One drove his car at 100mph into an Illinois concrete abutment, another gassed himself in his garage and the other hung himself in jail...

Again: Run a Google search on any of these. Most all should report back a CONVICTION on child sexual abuse. Except for Mark Foley who merely got lucky he wasn't caught. Read 'em and weep. For the children that is...


Republican Party Chairman Donald Fleischman
Republican prosecutor John David Roy Atchison
Republican city councilman John Bryan
Republican legislator Ted Klaudt
Republican city councilman Joseph Monteleone Jr
Republican congressional aide Jeffrey Nielsen
Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire
Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan
Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall
Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp
Republican Congressman Mark Foley
Republican executive Randall Casseday
Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres
Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd
Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich
Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy
Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall
Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano
Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins
Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker
Republican Mayor Philip Giordano
Republican Mayor Tom Adams
Republican Mayor John Gosek
Republican County Commissioner David Swartz
Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo
Republican Committeeman John R. Curtin
Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth
Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader
Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency
Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge
Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond
Republican pastor Mike Hintz
Republican legislator Peter Dibble
Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer was sentenced to six years in prison for molesting two 8-year old girls, one of whom appeared in an anti-Gore television commercial.
Republican fundraiser Lawrence E. King, Jr
Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s(More on this later)
Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens
Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio
Republican activist Mark A. Grethen
Republican campaign chairman Randal David Ankeney
Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell
Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline
Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman
Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti
Republican activist Marty Glickman
Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks
Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway
Republican preacher Stephen White
Republican talk show host Jon Matthews
Republican anti-gay activist Earl "Butch" Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her
Republican Party leader Paul Ingram
Republican election board official Kevin Coan
Republican politician Andrew Buhr
Republican legislator Keith Westmoreland
Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt
Republican County Councilman Keola Childs
Republican activist John Butler
Republican candidate Richard Gardner
Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner
Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter
Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr
Republican activist Parker J. Bena
Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz
Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall
Republican city councilman Mark Harris
Republican businessman Jon Grunseth
Republican campaign worker, police officer and self-proclaimed reverend Steve Aiken
Republican director of the "Young Republican Federation" Nicholas Elizondo
Republican president of the New York City Housing Development Corp. Russell Harding
Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr

[sandy rose]

thanks, Lee and Thoth II for your comments on the perverts. yeah, absolutely
creeps me out, too.
yeah, that was my first thought, that yeah, like the pantagone is gonna
prosecute their own criminals.. kind of a mixed bag of feelings here. first,
what a bunch of sick pigs. Lee and whomever else have kept track of all these
sickos, thanks. wow, that's quite a long and disgusting list of perverts.
somewhat surprising, the way things are, that any of them get convicted, eh?

really gross how they dismissed most of the child porn fans, like it wasn't anything
THAT bad, or they didn't have the resources, yeah, right, cause they're busy
spending all the moo on war and weapons..

but then why bring it back up and do more thorough investigations?
and yeah, isn't it weird and gross, how do warmaking and child porn go
together? just all around sickos with the need to kill and abuse kids?
reminds me of how weird i always think it is that some so called religious people
are also war mongerers, and vice versa. things that don't seem to make sense.

i thought this sentence was particularly interesting:
Kenneth deGraffenreid, one of the nation's top former counterintelligence officials, told The Upshot last week that the Pentagon's failure to run down at the very least every name with a clearance was "absurd," and that foreign intelligence services are actively seeking people who have both access to America's secrets and terrible secrets of their own that make them vulnerable to blackmail.

of course being a 9/11 truther i wondered if any of 'america's secrets' might involve 9/11.

i don't think i've heard of 'the Upshot til now, gotta check that out more.

[Thoth II]

"Thoth II: This is not about Jesse's book but about a forthcoming episode of "Conspiracy Theory" on TruTV in which he dismantles the official account of the assassination of JFK. I was featured in the program and had a role in its production. Since I have done so much on JFK, perhaps they might want to feature a rebuttal. Jim"

Excellent, I look forward to watching that episode of Conspiracy Theory. Ttrutv evidently filmed those for fall release so I would expect it out soon. Good thing about cable TV these days is that they have multiple airings and even after a few months hiatus come back out with rebroadcasts usually.

[bill smith]

The Censoring of Project Censored.


' This years new Project Censored 2011 Book has been released including numerous stories and references to the 9/11 cover up. Dr. Peter Phillips and Mickey Huff explain in this interview that they have been censored by so called "alternative" left wing publications because of their refusal to drop 9/11 truth content!

From the show notes: "Censored 2011" with Dr. Peter Phillips and Mickey Huff. We discuss the new Project Censored book and some of the most censored news stories of the past year. --END--''

http://aud1.kpfa.org/data/20100915-Wed1300.mp3 audio

http://911blogger.com/news/2010-09-21/project-censored-censored-bec...

[sandy rose]

regarding the list of people who were said to have purchased the child porn,
how's this for a weird idea?.....or maybe not so weird considering.....

Lee, as soon as you mentioned the 3 people who 'committed suicide'
i instantly wondered if they might have had 'help' with the 'suicides', and i
don't mean Dr. Kavorkian style.. it certainly wouldn't be the first time that
deaths were made to look like suicides but were altogether something else.

add to that the part about foreign intelligence services looking for people
who both knew 'america's secrets' and had grossout things to hide of their own..

because doesn't it seem a bit weird that they would reopen these
investigations rather than just sweep it all under the rug and hope nobody
notices? unless they managed to actually get a good guy or two in there
who would actually prosecute such people, and that doesn't seem that likely,
the whole story doesn't sit right and seems there must be more to it, ya know?

maybe the investigations even have a sinister side to them, rather than
just the good guys (if there are any in there) going after the sicko guys.
maybe they're trying to bag the guys who know 'america's secrets' before
the foreign intelligence folks can try to blackmail the secrets out of them.

imagine it even a step further, and maybe it could be a way of bagging
some who know the 'secrets', whether they actually did the porn purchases
or not. would be easy enough for them to set up people they wanted to
shut up, right, rather than risk anyone else 'blackmailing' the 'secrets' out of em.
of course i don't doubt that there are plenty of actual sickos in the pot, too.

maybe it's just my over?active imagination, but the whole story seems
off somehow to me, and it also seems surprising that so many repubikins
would be busted by their own. just a thought. Lee, do you have the names
of the 3 who 'committed suicide'?

[Lee Cahalan]

Well in each of the three cases the suicides occurred on the heels of a conviction. I'd have to research the people and start all over without my old computer online. As I recollect one was some kind of Illinois County commissioner who did his daughters. While out on bail he drove his car at 100 mph into concrete. Then the guy who gassed himself had also received a verdict. Or perhaps his daughters had agreed to testify against him. He was from some southern east coast state like georgia. One of those typical GOP "Family values" hypocrites. And the last was already in jail from an FBI internet sting.

Of the three the good ol boy from the South might seem the easiest one to have been an intentional hit. The other two seem less likely.

Sandy: I have no doubt that the only reason they re-opened the investigation was for self serving reasons. As for blackmail from foreign countries? My guess is that ALL intelligence services work together. Every promotion in the intelligence service more a product of collusion with helpful parties among their "enemies" than for anything productive within their own agency.

I generally remain skeptical of some of those "Satanic Cult" internet theories of child abduction and so on but maybe it's just because I'm naive. What would stop these bastards? In order to pull off 9/11 they simply had to have zero moral scruples. So the obvious candidates for that kind of conspiracy would be a collective group of child predators.

The shoe seems to fit. Where smoke there is fire. Disappearing kids and high incidence of kiddie crime convictions being the smoke.

sandy rose said:

regarding the list of people who were said to have purchased the child porn,
how's this for a weird idea?.....or maybe not so weird considering.....

Lee, as soon as you mentioned the 3 people who 'committed suicide'
i instantly wondered if they might have had 'help' with the 'suicides', and i
don't mean Dr. Kavorkian style.. it certainly wouldn't be the first time that
deaths were made to look like suicides but were altogether something else.

add to that the part about foreign intelligence services looking for people
who both knew 'america's secrets' and had grossout things to hide of their own..

because doesn't it seem a bit weird that they would reopen these
investigations rather than just sweep it all under the rug and hope nobody
notices? unless they managed to actually get a good guy or two in there
who would actually prosecute such people, and that doesn't seem that likely,
the whole story doesn't sit right and seems there must be more to it, ya know?

maybe the investigations even have a sinister side to them, rather than
just the good guys (if there are any in there) going after the sicko guys.
maybe they're trying to bag the guys who know 'america's secrets' before
the foreign intelligence folks can try to blackmail the secrets out of them.

imagine it even a step further, and maybe it could be a way of bagging
some who know the 'secrets', whether they actually did the porn purchases
or not. would be easy enough for them to set up people they wanted to
shut up, right, rather than risk anyone else 'blackmailing' the 'secrets' out of em.
of course i don't doubt that there are plenty of actual sickos in the pot, too.

maybe it's just my over?active imagination, but the whole story seems
off somehow to me, and it also seems surprising that so many repubikins
would be busted by their own. just a thought. Lee, do you have the names
of the 3 who 'committed suicide'?

[Lee Cahalan]

Wow! I just tried to research each case as i recollected them. One was a county commissioner from Aurora, IL so i think. He's the one who drove 100 mph into freeway abutment. BUT...

But when i did a Google search I saw so freaking many other suicides involving "pedo-files" that they all seem to get lost in the fray.

Will keep you posted. if it matters. All my statements are true to the best of my knowledge but the proof is stuck in a frozen AMD computer...

[sandy rose]

wow, thanks, Lee for all the info. don't suppose your computer had any
help freezing!?
yeah, i put nothing past 'them' whatsoever. even child sacrifices just
for kicks. some mighty sick puppies we're talking about. whoa, that was
a big insult to puppies.
years back i looked into a bunch of really freaky stuff about their weirdo
club, bohemian grove, i'm thinking, not sure if that was the name, where they
would all gather at some hideout in california i think it was and do weird stuff
and worship a giant owl and did something they called cremation of care,
or something with 'MOCK' sacrifices. i had the chilling feeling when i learned
all of that weird stuff that the sacrifices may have not been all that mock.

wow, freaky about alll the 'suicides'. as gross as the stuff is that they're
into, is it worth committing suicide over? or maybe they're just deathly afraid
of what might happen to em behind bars. pos. (pieces of shit). or maybe
like i implied earlier the top pigs find it more useful to just put them out of their
misery.

very interesting, thanks for your input!

when i find the time i'm gonna search a bit about the suicides, etc.

[Dean]

I have a question I would like to submit as a poll for anyone who wants to answer:

What is the most important issue for the 9/11 research community to investigate right now and why

[Dean]

9/11 Scholars Forum Survey Answers:

1) 9/11 was an inside job where the Administration made it happen.
2) The videos are authentic.
3) The "collapse" of the Twin Towers was a mixture of demolitions and other devices.
4) The collapse of Building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition
5) The Pentagon attack involved a plane that flew right over it but did not strike it.
6) There was no crash at Shanksville. Evidence was planted there and all other sites.
7) Some passengers wound up in Cleveland as part of Flight 175; others landed safely in Pennsylvania as part of Flight 93. The other "flights" were phony and fake names were used for most of the passengers on the real flights.
8) The most important thing the 9/11 research community can do is decide which issues are really worth debating. Because the official theory alleges flights, hijackers and crashes into buildings, the best thing to do is to assert that these things did not happen and that the govt. has lied to us. Many issues like what caused WTC buildings to come down will noever come to a consensus in our community.

[Donald Edward Stahl]

9/11 Scholars Forum
Exposing Falsehoods and Revealing Truths

A message to all members of 9/11 Scholars Forum
All,

Sandy Rose has suggested that it might be appropriate to conduct a survey of the members of the forum to determine where we stand individually and collectively. So here are some questions for you. Please post your response on the "Open Discussion" page, where they can be discussed by each of us in relation to each other.

(1) 9/11 was

(a) a terrorist act ---Agree
(i) involving 19 Islamic fundamentalists
(ii) directed by Osama bin Landen from his cave
(b) an inside job where ---Agree
(i) the administration "let it happen" ---Agree
(ii) the administration "made it happen" ---Agree

(2) The videos are
(a) authentic ---Agree
(b) faked
(i) flying what'sits at the North Tower
(ii) CGIs, compositing, or holograms at the South

(3) The "collapse" of the Twin Towers
(i) actually happened as the official account claims
(ii) represented a demolition under control
(a) using thermite and conventional explosives ---Agree
(b) using unconventional methods, such as mini-nukes or some kind of directed-energy devices ---Don'tKnow

(4) The collapse of Building 7
(a) was collateral damage from the destruction of the Twin Towers
(b) was arranged and brought down by a classic controlled demolition ---Agree

(5) The Pentagon attack
(a) really took place with a Boeing 757 hitting the building
(b) involved a fly-over by a Boeing 757 which did not hit the building ---Don'tKnow
(c) involved a second, smaller plane that may have fired a missile into the building ---Don'tKnow

(6) The Shanksville crash
(a) occurred just as the government has claimed (into a mining shaft or whatever)
(b) did not occur at all and is just as phony as the rest of the official story ---Agree

(7) What happened to the passengers? ---Don'tKnow
(a) they were killed in the plane crashes
(b) they were kidnapped and are in undisclosed secret locations
(c) they were mostly fabricated, just as fake as the rest of the official account

Please us this as an outline in submitting your comments in the "Open Discussion" forum and, as others show up, take some time to think about what others have said and why you agree or disagree about their views on these crucial issues. If you feel inclined, add a paragraph about where the movement should go from here.

Many thanks!

Jim

What did happen in all its particularity is less important than the fact that the world was lied to and continues to (pretend to) believe that lie. This is what can be established beyond any doubt, and is quite enough grounds for proceeding to act on its basis. I imagine many people are delighted to see us quibble instead of act. ---Donald Stahl