Open Discussion

[James H. Fetzer]

Sandy has suggested that we have a space for open discussion of topics that may be off-topic. That's fine with me. Let's see if the "Discussion" option will serve that purpose. Please give it a shot. Jim

[Mehmet Inan]

Thoth II, “So DEW and mini nuke are still alive and kicking today. Let the researchers keep on getting the evidence and then maybe we'll be able to start eliminating like you're suggesting.”

I answered yet to these claims, and I am becoming tired, so I’ll be direct:

- Star Wars Directed-Energy Weapons (DEW) is definitely impossible. J. Wood only put the hypothesis on line. That’s all. Oh, sorry, she showed tens of burnt cars. Is that evidence for DEW? No. Isn’t there any other method to create such burnt cars? For example one people who want to get insurance pay his unsold cars. It was the best time to burn these cars. Imagine other criminals who got problem with the owner of the cars, and they burnt his cars. …

What ever it could be, the maximum available power from DEW coming from space is about 1kW. Coming from an airborne plane it’s about 1MW = 1000kW. The required power to make the towers collapse is about 1GW. That means it’s definitely impossible.

Such system has NEVER been used to demolish any tower! And you think that perpetrators will use such system in an event which must be 100% successful, and where there is no place for error! That’s impossible.

You also speak about mini nuclear bomb! It’s clearly visible in the videos that there were hundreds of explosions which followed each other. One mini nuke will create ONE explosion collapsing whole tower and ejecting debris from everywhere in the same time. That will also create a HUGE sound wave clearly audible from everywhere. We saw NO SINGLE explosion, NO ONE eyewitness spoke about single huge sound. So it’s definitely NOT ONE SINGLE explosion. So the mini nuke is definitely OUT.

Here we have the succession of ejections of debris getting each after other. The explosions happened under the connection of the floor trusses to the core columns. That made the floor trusses begin to collapse at their inner end. The floors became oblique from lower inner end to upper external end. And the explosions continued to happen creating high pressure in the towers. The pressure and dust get outward in the oblique direction of the floor. That’s why they were upward at the exit, before they fall down later. This is explained in this picture https://api.ning.com/files/RCys80y56jvxqgkb0uO3IX-jPpxf0VKOJ2kxe0v-...

[Thoth II]

"You also speak about mini nuclear bomb! It’s clearly visible in the videos that there were hundreds of explosions which followed each other. One mini nuke will create ONE explosion collapsing whole tower and ejecting debris from everywhere in the same time. That will also create a HUGE sound wave clearly audible from everywhere. We saw NO SINGLE explosion, NO ONE eyewitness spoke about single huge sound. So it’s definitely NOT ONE SINGLE explosion. So the mini nuke is definitely OUT.

Here we have the succession of ejections of debris getting each after other. The explosions happened under the connection of the floor trusses to the core columns. That made the floor trusses begin to collapse at their inner end. The floors became oblique from lower inner end to upper external end. And the explosions continued to happen creating high pressure in the towers. The pressure and dust get outward in the oblique direction of the floor. That’s why they were upward at the exit, before they fall down later. This is explained in this picture"

here is where we are starting to agree. I myself never thought DEW explained the evidence as well as nuke and you made excellent points about DEW. I myself agree that that was a Judy Wood fantasy and had no credence to it. So we agree on that.

I am not a demolition expert and I would agree at this point it was either mini nuke or explosives like you are proposing. I am not saying you are wrong. But to me, the tritium (heavy hydrogen) evidence must be taken into account, and that is consistent with mini nuke. I am not convinced you would hear a heavy blast from nuke. If it was pulverizing steel and concrete, that would absorb all the energy with no energy left for either heat or sound waves. Think of the phase change of water from ice at 0 celsius to water at 0 celsius. There, energy (heat) is added to break the molecular bonds (latent heat of fusion) , but no heat leftover for any increase in temperature. That is analogous to the mini nuke situation. We do not know how many of them or how small. Plus I heard a Dr. talk about radiation sickness in people like at Hiroshima. And gamma rays or a cloud of radioactive material could explain (a) melted cars, (b) why the authorities for years kept bring in dirt to cover the debris like they did at Chernobyl.

[Mehmet Inan]

Thoth II said: “I am not a demolition expert and I would agree at this point it was either mini nuke or explosives like you are proposing. I am not saying you are wrong. But to me, the tritium (heavy hydrogen) evidence must be taken into account, and that is consistent with mini nuke. I am not convinced you would hear a heavy blast from nuke. If it was pulverizing steel and concrete, that would absorb all the energy with no energy left for either heat or sound waves.”

To make the tower collapse, the produced energy must be too much bigger than the amount absorbable by the columns or slabs. If the energy could be absorbed, there is no demolition. In such demolition, you’ll get huge explosion and sound.

Also, if you imagine pulverized hydrogen (or any other scientific name to make publicity :) ) the explosion will start at one point and progress within less than one second into whole tower. We didn’t saw such unique explosion. With such explosion one can not produce top-down progressive collapse.

Telling numerous hypotheses is always possible and easy. But telling a strong theory that fits to all evidence is not easy.

There was a succession of explosions during more than 10sec. Radio controlled conventional explosives were placed at the required places.

Forget big scientific ideas. Only proved technologies were used in these demolitions. The question is not new technology problem; the current technology is able to make that since decades. There is no reason to use new technology and it’s very dangerous to use such new technology.

[Mehmet Inan]

Where are you Jim? No news from you. Did you study my power point, my answers?

[Thoth II]

Mehmet , again , I am not a demolitions expert, so you could be correct but answer two questions, if you can:

(1) why was tritium experienced at the tower? If that is so, how do conventional explosives account for that?

(2) how much conventional explosives do you estimate were needed for each tower? Would it have been practical for, say , the Ace Elevator (phony company of intelligence assetts) , to get all those planted in there?

[Mehmet Inan]

Thoth II said: “(1) why was tritium experienced at the tower?”

This is the first time I hear about tritium at the towers! H³ atoms! My first reaction is: Let me laugh. :))))))) Again some crazy disinfo agents are trying to make people focus some hypothetic molecular traces to avoid them get an open wide vision on the subject. What’s the relation between H³ and the collapse of the towers? The answer is simple: We found traces of H³! That’s all. We have traces!! And so? Are you sure the samples were original? ?? Who found these traces? …

My feeling tells me: This is another fake subject to linger more the turning around of the truthers. I do not have more time to analyze that now. I wasted enough time with sulfur (that exists everywhere), with aluminum oxide, with micro spheres, with oxidation, with pod, with DEW, garage door hypothesis, with fake videos, …

Thoth II said: “If that is so, how do conventional explosives account for that (2) how much conventional explosives do you estimate were needed for each tower? Would it have been practical for, say , the Ace Elevator (phony company of intelligence assetts) , to get all those planted in there?”

That’s a more realistic question. And yes I have an answer for that:
For the upper part where only the core columns were exploded, we need to install explosives on 32 core columns accessible from the lift shafts. Make it on about 30 floors, and every 3 floors only, that makes 10 level and 32 explosives per level, that makes 320 explosives.

For the remaining lower part, we need explosives on columns 501-508, 1001-1008, 601, 608, 901, 908 = 20 explosives of the floor seats, and 5 other for core column connections, that makes 25 explosives per floor. That must be made on 80 floors. The total required amount is 2000 explosives.

For each tower we need 320+2000=2320 explosives. All must be placed from the lifts. They can be sorted in packs with well identified parts. Put all explosives of each lift in one box and introduce the box into the lift. We need 2 people above the lift and one people inside. At each 80+10=90 floor levels they stop the lift and place the explosives. There are 2x8 lifts, to be made each day, 8 lifts in the morning, and 8 lifts in the afternoon. So with 3x8=24 people it’s possible to rig the explosives in both towers during the week end of September 8-9. The preparation should be well done, and the work should be industrially made.

Do not forget, the explosives are radio controlled and easy mounted by lock system or simple magnet.

Who planted them? The 200 members of the “Israeli Spy (Criminal) Ring” and the five “Dancing Israelis” are the best guests. Search for “Israeli Spy Ring” and “Dancing Israelis”.

[Thoth II]

Mehmet,

you are making a believer of me. You answered the questions very well and at this point , I am inclined to think that your H (hypothesis) has made the top part of the list. I would totally agree with you if I were more of a demolitions expert and if more research were done to prove that the tritium is really disinfo. I know it is hard to sort out the real and fake data because there are so many disinfo people involved.

Thanks for the time to work this out. Someday, maybe everyone will believe that your demolition sequence is what really happened, so your research is important.

[Mehmet Inan]

Thoth II said: “Mehmet, you are making a believer of me. You answered the questions very well and at this point , I am inclined to think that your H (hypothesis) has made the top part of the list. I would totally agree with you if I were more of a demolitions expert and if more research were done to prove that the tritium is really disinfo. I know it is hard to sort out the real and fake data because there are so many disinfo people involved.”

Yes, there are so many disinfo agents. I understand. People do not more know what’s true and what’s wrong. That’s the consequence of the work of disinfo agents.

Do you understand how important is to clean up all our theories! If people were really sincere, they’ll speak out and remove all wrong theories. Instead, people become silent when right questions are asked. If people become silent when key questions are asked, it’s very probably that they are disinfo agents. Because that means they are unable to answer, but they continue to push forward their wrong questions.

Thoth II said: “Thanks for the time to work this out. Someday, maybe everyone will believe that your demolition sequence is what really happened, so your research is important.”

As everybody, I can make mistake. And if anyone prove me that I made mistake, I am ready to change my opinion and revoke my claims. If we are really willing to find the truth about 9/11, we must all be able to make that. After several years of investigation, there is less and less unknown questions, even after so long time, I am ready to change my opinion.

Unfortunately, many other people refuse to change their opinion, refuse to tell that some of their theories are wrong. I am really sad with such situation. And when some leaders do such refusal and they become silent, I am very disappointed. I believe leader have no right to become silent face to some questions. Unfortunately many of them became silent. And their silence avoids the group to progress, they really stop the investigation to progress, they make the investigation stop.

For your case, you must follow your own opinion. Face to such conditions, everybody must know what he is following or not.

[Mark E. Smith]

Military tribunals have tried 20 cases and convicted 3, so they have a 15% conviction rate.

The courts have tried hundreds of cases, and they have an 88% conviction rate.

http://bestoftheblogs.com/Home/25767

The problem, as I see it, is that many of those people have been known all along to be innocent. I think most of them are sent to prison so that they can't write books or make movies about the torture they underwent.

The courts often tend to exclude evidence.

It has become an old familiar refrain, the U.S. government claiming that it cannot produce evidence in court because it might expose national security secrets such as their sources and methods.

But there are no secrets.

The methods are always the same. Innocent people are tortured until they confess to crimes they didn't commit.

Then, since the only "evidence" is the "confession" extracted by torture, a source is needed to corroborate it.

So the government looks for someone who is actually guilty of the most heinous and violent crimes and sentenced to death or life imprisonment. Somebody who was caught red-handed after murdering people, for example, and who therefore has no hope of ever getting out of prison. The federal prosecutors then offer to commute their sentence, have them fully pardoned, and put them in the witness protection program, if they'll simply lie under oath and corroborate the "evidence."

The result is fascism's ideal of "justice," in that a guilty person goes free and an innocent person is sent to prison.

The only problem is that the government doesn't want to admit in court that it has no evidence other than that obtained through torture and suborning perjury.

So it claims there are national security interests at stake such as sources and methods.

But the sources and methods are always the same, and are well known. The torture manuals used at the Schoool of the Americas/WHINSEC have been published online.

Military tribunals are less apt to exclude evidence or allow perjured testimony, so they convict fewer innocent people.

I know it seems counterintuitive to want people tried in military tribunals rather than in federal courts, but our Justice Department and our courts have become so corrupt that a truly innocent person has a much better chance with a military tribunal.

In high profile cases, the judges in federal courts don't want the publicity or allegations of being soft on terror that might occur if a suspected terrorist was found innocent and freed. Many suspected terrorists were just rounded up at random after 9/11 and had no connections to terrorism whatsoever, while others were unfortunates who were turned in to U.S. forces for the huge bounties our government was paying in Afghanistan. People saw a chance to get more money than they could earn in a lifetime, so they turned in their enemies, strangers, and members of other tribes, none of whom were actual terrorists. Some of us remember the same thing happening in Viet Nam, where people would get even with their enemies, or get a rival's land, home, or business, by simply turning the person in to U.S. troops as "Viet Cong." The judges in military tribunals don't have to stand for election, so they are less apt to make decisions based on politics rather than on the facts of the case.

Our courts are even convicting people of terrorism when they had nothing whatsoever to do with terrorists but some informant needed money and would pressure them into going along with some plan that the informant or the FBI devised, that the poor victims would never have thought of if they hadn't been entrapped by paid provocateurs.

It's a scam. The informants are desperate to turn up something so that they can stay out of jail and keep getting paid. So it is like somebody going up to a teenager and offering them drugs, the teen says, no, they aren't interested, the agent says, "Well, just try it," the kid says, "No," so the agent says, "Would you at least look at it? "and puts the drugs in the kid's hand, and then arrests them for possession. When you have the world's biggest gulag, you have to keep those prisons full somehow, and fascists and capitalists don't care how they do it. And when a government is spending trillions on a war on terror, it has to find some sort of terrorists to justify that budget.

We're the terrorists. First we stage a false flag operation to blame terrorists, then we invade countries that had nothing to do with it, then we use torture techniques that were specifically developed for the purpose of coercing innocent people into confessing to crimes they didn't commit, and then we run them through a "justice" system that is one of the most racist, classist, and corrupt in the world. The trials are part of the cover-up. Just a way to point the finger at the innocent so that the guilty can continue to profit from their crimes.

[Mehmet Inan]

Jim,

I replied to your post here http://911scholars.ning.com/xn/detail/3488444:Comment:8042 since October 1, I also made other comments that require you answer and comment them. But since that time, you are silent. You may have less time, but my questions are strong, sincere and require answers. I hope, you'll take your responsibility as leader and take some decisions, give some comments and chose what route you follow.

Hope to hear from you.



James H. Fetzer said:

Mehmet, If you watch the first 20 minutes of "9/11 Ripple Effect", which is archived here and shows many videos of the hit on the South Tower, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3969310749489496889# you will see what I am talking about with regard to the manner in which the plane enters the building in violation of Newton's laws. The discussion in the film is about the "pod" and the electrical discharge as the plane reaches the building, but far more interesting is the way in which the plane effortlessly enters the building. As Scott Forbes observed from his vantage point, it was as though the South Tower simply "swallowed the plane". I would like to have your opinion on the physics of the interaction between them.

My latest presentation, by the way, if I have not mentioned it already, is at the London Symposium, "Debunking the "War on Terror'", which is archived at http://noliesradio.org/archives/21621/ , where I discuss all of the issues that seem to divide us.

[James H. Fetzer]

Here is a disturbing and apparently well-documented study. I would like to know what it has wrong about 9/11:
http://incogman.net/09/2010/the-zionist-rats-who-stabbed-america-in... It isn't polite. But it may still be true.

[Dean]

Jim,

I have to agree that the article is disturbing. I couldn't find fault with too many of the facts they pointed out. But I am not convinced of the conclusion that Netanyahu was the architect. I also believe that pursuing the "how" of the event will lead us to the "who" as knowing how allows us to eliminate suspects.

James H. Fetzer said:

Here is a disturbing and apparently well-documented study. I would like to know what it has wrong about 9/11:
http://incogman.net/09/2010/the-zionist-rats-who-stabbed-america-in... It isn't polite. But it may still be true.