Open Discussion

[James H. Fetzer]

Sandy has suggested that we have a space for open discussion of topics that may be off-topic. That's fine with me. Let's see if the "Discussion" option will serve that purpose. Please give it a shot. Jim

[Mark E. Smith]

I'm an atheist, but having been born and raised Jewish, I'm usually very quick to dismiss something as anti-Semitic if it isn't logical and doesn't make sense. I couldn't find fault with that article. The facts are correct as far as I can tell, and I don't see any unfounded conclusions being drawn, but I didn't study it, I just skimmed it.

There was a guy who said that he had proof that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were real, and not a forgery, because they had been found to be a forgery in court. He said that there can't be a forgery unless the real thing exists, so the Protocols had to be real. That didn't make sense to me. I figured if I forged a million dollar check to myself from him, was he going to go into court and claim it was a forgery? If so, by his own "logic" a real check must exist. Which is absurd. So I don't know if the Protocols are real or not, but I know that guy wasn't making sense.

I just finished reading, Albert D. Pastore's book, Stranger Than Fiction, and I didn't have any problems with it. Jewish gangsters are nothing new; Murder Incorporated was Jewish. The genocide-for-profit industry has been the basis for the United States since it was founded, and Israel and the U.S. are staunch allies because they're in the same business. If a decent person has the misfortune to be born into a KKK, Mafia, neo-Nazi, or other fascist family, they distance themselves from it as soon as they're old enough to be able to. I became an atheist at age seven, when I decided that no deity worthy of the name would countenance such disparate conditions as existed among the children of the world, so therefore there was no deity, at least not one worthy of the name.

Off topic, but there were a couple of interesting things in the news. Officer Bubbles, the cop who harassed a protester for blowing soap bubbles, is suing YouTube over some cartoons that made fun of him. It's a really stupid thing to do, as now he is once more a laughing stock on the internet. And Ginni Thomas, Clarence Thomas's wife, wanted to ask Anita Hill for an apology for saying Justice Thomas had sexually harassed her, which is an even dumber thing to have done, as Anita Hill refused to apologize and C-Span is re-airing the testimony from the Thomas confirmation hearing. At least one guy apologized for attacking Anita Hill, and it was pretty obvious that she was telling the truth. So, even if justice is served nowhere else, on the internet it becomes possible.

There was also an interesting item about 9/11. I saw a Tweet a few hours ago saying that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the President of Iran, has announced that he will set up an impartial commission to investigate 9/11. On October 14th he had asked the United Nations to do it, but he has apparently realized that they are neither independent nor impartial. So this should be very interesting. If this is true and it actually happens, I hope Jim has an opportunity to either testify, advise the investigators, or submit documentation that might help them.

[Mehmet Inan]

Almost all events are true. But all these evidences are meaningles if the question "HOW they made 9/11?" is not answered. You can fin the answer to that question in my power point http://users.swing.be/mehmeti/

My answers to the "HOW" question are also leading to Mossad and in very smaller part to non-jew americans inside Bush Administration.

That explanation of "HOW they made 9/11?" contradicts some theories that ST911 and Jim Fetzer are supporting. These false theories are DEW (Directed Enery Weapon), NPT (No Plane Theory), Mini Nuke theory, ... I am very disturbed by the support of ST911 to such wrong theories. I can not accept such wrong theories in scholars groups. Because that shows two possibilities:
- ST911 is a disinfo group: I refuse to accept such idea. If that status quo situation continues, I'll be obliged to accept that idea.
- ST911 is full of non professionnal people : I also refuse to accept such idea. But if that status quo situation continues, I'll be obliged to accept that idea too.

If we are sincere in our work, we must clean up all our wrong theories as soon as possible, practically before end of the year. If we fail to do that, I'll definitely stop my collaboration to all groups, including ST911.



James H. Fetzer said:

Here is a disturbing and apparently well-documented study. I would like to know what it has wrong about 9/11:
http://incogman.net/09/2010/the-zionist-rats-who-stabbed-america-in... It isn't polite. But it may still be true.

[Mark E. Smith]

There is another possibility, Mehmet. There is the possibility that the theories you believe are false, are actually true.

But you can't accept that because you believe that they're false. That means that you are a religious person who believes in miracles. You believe that the soft aluminum nose cone of a plane, which can be damaged by something as soft as a little bird, can enter a concrete and steel building and come out undamaged on the other side. You believe that planes which cannot exceed their speed and maneuverability limits, somehow did so on 9/11. You believe that the laws of physics were suspended for a day. Because of your unscientific beliefs, you are unwilling to look at the scientific evidence, because you BELIEVE it to be false.

The professional pilots on pilotsfor911truth.org have flown those same planes for many years and they know what those planes are capable of doing and are not capable of doing. To believe that those planes did what those planes cannot possibly do, is like believing that horses can run 600 miles an hour. They can't. It simply isn't possible. But to those who believe it true, anything is possible because of the miracles of divine intervention. Divine intervention had nothing to do with 9/11.

Those planes could not have flown at the speeds and altitudes the government claims they flew, or performed the turns at those speeds and altitudes that the government claims they did. Not without miracles caused by divine intervention, and that is not scientific. Those planes could not have caused the damage the government claims they did. Not without divine intervention, and that is not scientific.

Your beliefs will not allow you to look at the facts. But accusing others of spreading disinformation or being unprofessional because they don't share your unscientific beliefs just makes you look silly.

If President Ahmadinejad's commission investigates 9/11, they will find no evidence of planes, because there is no evidence of planes. The only "evidence" is of conflicting films that show impossible things, like a plane passing through a building instead of smashing into it the way that a real plane would. When an airplane hits a building, even a small wooden building, the plane falls down, the building does not. There is a lot of photographic proof of that on some of the websites that you won't look at because you prefer to believe in miracles.

When a person believes in miracles, it is useless to try to appeal to reason, because reason conflicts with the belief in miracles.

There were no planes.

And since normal methods of controlled demolition would leave a lot more intact debris than there was on 9/11, something other than normal controlled demolition took place, or something in addition to controlled demolition, and it wasn't a miracle. The strange damage to the cars in the area wasn't caused by conventional explosives, and that damage isn't just a coincidence, unimportant, or another miracle. Dismissing the facts that get in the way of your beliefs is very unprofessional, and insisting that things that couldn't happen, happened, is just a way to support the government's cover-up of 9/11.

Jim mentioned his London talk several times and we've given you the link to the videos: http://noliesradio.org/archives/21621/

Apparently you won't watch it because you don't want the facts to get in the way of your beliefs. That's sad and very unprofessional.

[Lee Cahalan]

I'll take this to another level: Assuming the information about Mossad and Israel complicity in 9/11 is accurate then what better place to hide the facts than on a Nazi web-site? Who's going to take the matter seriously?

If I were Netanyahu I'd have paid money for those awful bastards to post their findings. Best way to discredit a theory is to have a group of racist jerks promote it.

If this keeps on going on here I may start defending the Israelis for taking down the towers. Assuming they did. Not quite but closer...




Dean said:

Jim,

I have to agree that the article is disturbing. I couldn't find fault with too many of the facts they pointed out. But I am not convinced of the conclusion that Netanyahu was the architect. I also believe that pursuing the "how" of the event will lead us to the "who" as knowing how allows us to eliminate suspects.

James H. Fetzer said:

Here is a disturbing and apparently well-documented study. I would like to know what it has wrong about 9/11:
http://incogman.net/09/2010/the-zionist-rats-who-stabbed-america-in... It isn't polite. But it may still be true.

[Mark E. Smith]

So you don't like Nazis, Lee? I don't either. But not because of their skin color, ethnic heritage, beliefrs, or cultural heritage. I dislike Nazis because they're fascists. They wage wars of aggression, stage false-flag incidents like the Reichstag fire and 9/11 to justify their wars of aggression, and they're generally unpleasant thugs who lie, kill, and have no respect for others. Just like the people who did 9/11. So I have no respect for them because they're fascists, terrorists, and mass murderers, whether or not they are Jewish or Israeli.

On what basis would you defend the Israelis for taking down the towers, if they did, Lee? That they had, by taking down the towers, become no different from or better than the awful Nazi jerks you disrespect?

The United States is a fascist country, founded on the genocide of Native Americans by colonialists and imperialists, and it prospered through the massacres and displacement of native peoples in Latin America for the benefit of private capital. A government that acts on behalf of business is fascist. I don't like fascists of any stripe.

I'm sure it is possible to dislike Nazis, but to respect, admire, or defend other fascists, but only on the basis of prejudices and beliefs, not on any rational, logical, or common sense basis.

[Lee Cahalan]

I don't know if the Israelis were complicit in the 9/11 attacks. Nor would defend them if they did. I just wouldn't take seriously any findings listed in a Nazi type web-site such as the "disturbing" link produced. And in fact the more I see people post and re-post certifiable Nazi web pages the more damage I see being done to the 9/11 truthers.

This web-site is HIDEOUS: http://incogman.net/09/2010/the-zionist-rats-who-stabbed-america-in...

Why was it necessary to depict Larry Silverstein as a "rat"? What good purpose did that serve?

Again: Benjamin Netanyahu should send money to that HIDEOUS web-site begging them to keep up the racist, anti semitic stories and pictures. Plays perfectly into the Israelis hands.



Mark E. Smith said:

So you don't like Nazis, Lee? I don't either. But not because of their skin color, ethnic heritage, beliefrs, or cultural heritage. I dislike Nazis because they're fascists. They wage wars of aggression, stage false-flag incidents like the Reichstag fire and 9/11 to justify their wars of aggression, and they're generally unpleasant thugs who lie, kill, and have no respect for others. Just like the people who did 9/11. So I have no respect for them because they're fascists, terrorists, and mass murderers, whether or not they are Jewish or Israeli.

On what basis would you defend the Israelis for taking down the towers, if they did, Lee? That they had, by taking down the towers, become no different from or better than the awful Nazi jerks you disrespect?

The United States is a fascist country, founded on the genocide of Native Americans by colonialists and imperialists, and it prospered through the massacres and displacement of native peoples in Latin America for the benefit of private capital. A government that acts on behalf of business is fascist. I don't like fascists of any stripe.

I'm sure it is possible to dislike Nazis, but to respect, admire, or defend other fascists, but only on the basis of prejudices and beliefs, not on any rational, logical, or common sense basis.

[Mark E. Smith]

Playing into the hands of Israelis? Somehow, I don't feel very concerned about that. Any more than discussing no-planes or exotic weapons plays into the hands of those who wish to debunk 9/11 Truth.

Living in the United States I'm accustomed to a racist mainstream media that reports on wars of aggression as if they were ordinary wars rather than war crimes. You can't get much more fascist than that, which is why I don't have a TV, and don't connect with mainstream media.

Knowing the history of COINTELPRO, I don't have much of a problem with people who caricature war criminals. My problem is with the war criminals, and I respect those who fight back with art, words, and humor instead of the weapons that are used against them.

So I don't have a problem with the guy who posted cartoons of Officer Bubbles, my problem is with law enforcement officers who abuse their authority.

While the mainstream media is commercial and plays to the lowest common denominator, using appeals to authority and other psychological warfare techniques to isolate and delegitimize critics, the alternative media doesn't have the billions of dollars in corporate backing and has to use imaginative and unusual ways to provoke thought and discussions.

While it is true that the fascists will dismiss anything that criticizes them, that doesn't mean that the criticisms aren't valid.

I've often come up against online trolls who, finding themselves unable to refute my arguments, attack my tone, my writing style, or my character.

I'm tired of the genocides and holocausts. To caricature Netanyahu or Obama is, in my opinion, no worse than caricaturing Pol Pot, Hitler, Pinochet, Kagame, or any other mass murderer, terrorist, or war criminal.

Israel wants to be recognized as a "Jewish and democratic" state. But Jews are people who follow Torah and the essence of Torah is not to do to your neighbors that which would be hateful if done to you. The Palestinians are Israel's neighbors, Israel doesn't treat them the same way it wishes to be treated, so I don't see how they can pretend to be a Jewish state. I was raised Jewish and taught to hate fascism, not to emulate it. Walled ghettos are abhorrent to me--to look at Gaza is to see the Warsaw Ghetto. That's fascism.

If Israel wants to be respected, it should learn to respect others.

[Mehmet Inan]

Mark E. Smith said: “There is another possibility, Mehmet. There is the possibility that the theories you believe are false, are actually true.”

I debunked all those theories and their defenders are silent. If they are unable to defend their theories, they should remove their theories. It’s so simple.

By the same, if you are able to debunk any of my theories, feel free to do it. I am here to defend my work.

Mark E. Smith said: “But you can't accept that because you believe that they're false. That means that you are a religious person who believes in miracles.”

Keep such comments for yourself, and try to bring material evidence.

Mark E. Smith said: “You believe that the soft aluminum nose cone of a plane, which can be damaged by something as soft as a little bird, can enter a concrete and steel building and come out undamaged on the other side.”

In a plane, there are other materials than the nose! Whatever it could be, there are several tons supported by some steel/aluminum parts, and those have some weight too. And at the speed of a plane those parts will break thin outer columns of the towers.

Mark E. Smith said: “You believe that planes which cannot exceed their speed and maneuverability limits, somehow did so on 9/11.”

How can you calculate the planes exceeded their speed limit? You just decided it, and that’s all. Do you really think that manufacturers like Airbus and Boeing will produce planes that will disintegrate if they fall to lower altitudes while their slats are entered?

No, just somebody told you that the planes are unable to fly at that speed, and you believed, they are just pilots, so they know what they are telling! You are a good believer and follower. I am neither a believer nor a follower, never will I be. I need logical scientific material evidence and explanations, and after I check them all, I can support only if the work is true.

Mark E. Smith said: “You believe that the laws of physics were suspended for a day.”

I showed that your self defined laws of physics are just wrong, and I showed why they are wrong.

Mark E. Smith said: “The professional pilots on pilotsfor911truth.org have flown those same planes for many years and they know what those planes are capable of doing and are not capable of doing.”

I believe since long time that pilots for 9/11 truth are one of the best disinfo. By the label of “pilots” they are deceiving people. They know that the FDR stops seconds before the impact at the Pentagon, so it’s false, it has only the label of “official”, but they continue to produce theories it! Why? To deceive people. Are there any reason, or any possibility to make the light poles broken with any other thing than the plane that actually impacted the Pentagon? Not at all. To make that, somebody had to break them before the impact, or after the impact. Both are impossible. So the light poles are broken by the plane that hit the Pentagon, and that’s consistent with all available evidence, outside and inside damages to the Pentagon.

So, WHY pilots for 911 truth are trying to bring another theory against all strong evidence? They are just disinfo. And it’s forbidden to tell that. Why?


Mark E. Smith said: “To believe that those planes did what those planes cannot possibly do, is like believing that horses can run 600 miles an hour. They can't. It simply isn't possible. But to those who believe it true, anything is possible because of the miracles of divine intervention. Divine intervention had nothing to do with 9/11.

Divine intervention is a Jew belief, like you still have some from childhood. The Torah is written in that manner, with divine interventions. Yes, also divine horses in the Torah run at 600 miles per hour!

For your knowledge, the biggest miracle of God in the Quran is the Nature and its Natural laws.

Mark E. Smith said: “Your beliefs will not allow you to look at the facts. But accusing others of spreading disinformation or being unprofessional because they don't share your unscientific beliefs just makes you look silly.”

Keep such comments for yourself. My work is totally open for critics and debunkers, and I am always present to explain and defend my work by using scientific logical thinking. Disinfo agents always escaped the discussion because they are unable to defend their work. Disinfo could never be defended face to the science.

Mark E. Smith said: “If President Ahmadinejad's commission investigates 9/11, they will find no evidence of planes, because there is no evidence of planes.”

If he really makes such huge mistake, then he is really a nut. But I don’t think he will really go into such mistake.

Mark E. Smith said: “When an airplane hits a building, even a small wooden building, the plane falls down, the building does not.”

Totally wrong claims made by divine believer, and Jew originated service disinfo agent, self presented as Mark E. Smith.

Mark E. Smith said: “And since normal methods of controlled demolition would leave a lot more intact debris than there was on 9/11, something other than normal controlled demolition took place, or something in addition to controlled demolition, and it wasn't a miracle.”

The technical explanation of the demolitions of the twin towers are in my power point point slides 49, 50. See http://users.swing.be/mehmeti/

Mark E. Smith said: “The strange damage to the cars in the area wasn't caused by conventional explosives, and that damage isn't just a coincidence, unimportant, or another miracle.”

The cars were just a fraud to insurance. Not related to 9/11.

Mark E. Smith said: “Dismissing the facts that get in the way of your beliefs is very unprofessional, and insisting that things that couldn't happen, happened, is just a way to support the government's cover-up of 9/11.

Jim mentioned his London talk several times and we've given you the link to the videos: http://noliesradio.org/archives/21621/

Apparently you won't watch it because you don't want the facts to get in the way of your beliefs. That's sad and very unprofessional.”
I watched it, and argued why some claims were wrong; look for in the past, recent past, and you’ll find it. Jim asked time for study, but he never returned back with arguments. I am still waiting his arguments and study conclusions.

Jim, are you there, did you studied my arguments, do you have any answer? Do not consider that like a meaningless subject, I am extremely sincere and I am really waiting some answers from you. You have two choices: Defend your claims or revoke your claims. Continue to support your claims while you refuse to defend them is not leader’s work manner. I know you since nearly 5 years, end of 2005, remember that was the beginning of ST911; you must imagine that I am tired and not more ready to hear wrong theories.

[Mehmet Inan]

Shallel Octavia said: Mahmet, your arguments are tired and old. Straw-man physics. "

"How can you calculate the planes exceeded their speed limit? You just decided it, and that’s all. Do you really think that manufacturers like Airbus and Boeing will produce planes that will disintegrate if they fall to lower altitudes while their slats are entered?"
WTF?
Ask NIST or NTSB where these speeds came from. We certainly didn't just decide these speed nor did we calculate them from manufactured videos. They are stated in the reports you cite.”
The subject contains two aspects:
1- What was the speed of the planes: You just based your theory on the speeds released in the official reports. That’ meaningless, because they may increase or decrease the speed on their will. In that case 600mph is too high; this is the cruise speed at 30000ft altitude or more. So this statement looks too high. May be they did not measure the speed, they just gave the cruise speed of the plane, not based on measurement, and not based on the reality. SO this is meaningless.

2- Could the planes fly at low altitude at such speed, if not why they can’t:
In steady horizontal fly, the planes can not reach that speed at 400m altitude. The power of the engines is not enough to face the resistance made by the air. But in lowering fly they can reach that speed.

In any case, the actual speed could be about 300-400 mph. That’s still enough to make the plane enter naturally into the towers; bolted thin outer columns will be broken, at least some of them near the nose where the massive parts between the engines also entered. The columns at the extremity of the wings may remain intact with some surface damage only. That’s what we have. So everything is true, natural, normal, … There is no reason to doubt on the presence of the planes; except for making disinformation. You have to decide, disinfo or the truth.

Shallel Octavia said: “Do some research on Egypt Air 990. Certainly, Boeing and Airbus do not rate their planes for crash-resistance. The buildings, however were rated to resist large jet impacts. These are simple facts. I don't really think you are after the truth, or are a scholar,”

Do never make such crazy ad-hominem attacks against me! If you doubt I am scholar or truth seeker, just learn to use logical arguments to debunk my arguments and my work. That an honest manner of discussion. I hope to never read such craziness.

Shallel Octavia said: “but if you want to understand fight envelopes for safe -eg. non-destructive- flight, this may help: http://www.apstraining.com/v-g-diagram-discussion-with-aps-training/
”
These explanations are about aerobatic planes having fixed wings (no slats) and flying at low altitudes. That’s why the speed is limited to 195kts (360km/h). The planes that hit the towers were not such planes, even if UA175 made a quick turn at the last moment, nothing proves that this is impossible. This last rotation is a natural behavior of such plane controlled by on board automatic control system.

Shallel Octavia said: “Actually, you do have one point that is news to me, that the cars were an insurance fraud. That's rich! Do you have any other brilliant observations to clutter up this forum?”
As I told many times, my investigation about the strikes is done and finished. My web site contains the summary of the explanation how the strikes could be made according to all known strong evidence. I am ready to defend my work before all kind of experts and justice courts. I can not be more precise: The work is done.

Everybody who is unable to defend his work should revoke his own work as soon as possible in public area. Every supporter of theories made by others should stop his support if the authors of the theories are unable to defend them.

I gave strong arguments against the theories like Directed Energy Weapon, No Plane Theory, … If the authors are unable to defend their theory or they remain silent, they should stop their theories. If they still have any argument, they are well come here. But I do not accept such authors remain silent and some other people, like Jim Fetzer, continue to support them.

[Mehmet Inan]

Shallel Octavia said: “There were no planes. The speed of UA175 was taken from radar data, which was likely an inject or simulation. The speed given by NTSB was 510 knots shortly before the "crash". This is well beyond the maximum operating velocity of 360 knots, and maximum dive velocity of 410 knots.”

I took the Fairbanks video, measured the time required for the plane to cross its full size (48.5m for a 767-200), this time is 0.25+/-0.02second. 48.5/0.25=194m/s ==> 194*3600=698km/h=377kts. That speed is too much smaller than claimed 510kts.

Ok, I used simple software like quick time, … If you have better measurements feel free to make your own measurement and do not believe any other people.

As conclusion, the planes were real ones, and the NPT is disinfo. Will you still support that theory?

Shallel Octavia said: “Could you provide the link? I must have missed it.”

http://users.swing.be/mehmeti/

Download the power point file, the summary of the investigation is there. All comments are welcome.

[Mark E. Smith]

Mehmet writes:

"I took the Fairbanks video, measured the time required for the plane to cross its full size (48.5m for a 767-200), this time is 0.25+/-0.02second. 48.5/0.25=194m/s ==> 194*3600=698km/h=377kts. That speed is too much smaller than claimed 510kts."

Well then, by that "scientific method," Superman is real too because there are movies about him. You can see the proof in the movies that Superman can fly, and can calculate his speed.

Therefore, anyone who thinks that there is no Superman, must be a disinformation agent. Will you admit that Superman exists and stop saying there is no Superman?

[Thoth II]

So if the plane does not decelerate, according to Newtons Second Law F=ma=m(0)=0. There is no force to act on the plane or the building in this video.

"See my post of Ace Baker's slow motion version of Fairbanks where you can count the frames yourself.

http://911scholars.ning.com/video/lawsontheforger-1

In conclusion, the video you cite is a fake video of an impossible event. The does not disprove NPT. In fact it proves a violation of a basic Law of Motion, and proves the video is false. Thanks for the Link.

I would like to know how many here think the Fairbanks video is a real representation of a real event."

You are absolutely correct. It does not show a real plane hitting the building. This ball game is over, and I just don't understand why people can't see this. Newton's Laws cannot be violated.