Open Discussion

[James H. Fetzer]

Sandy has suggested that we have a space for open discussion of topics that may be off-topic. That's fine with me. Let's see if the "Discussion" option will serve that purpose. Please give it a shot. Jim

[Stuart Miller]

(1) 9/11 was

(a) a terrorist act

(i) involving 19 Islamic fundamentalists

(ii) directed by Osama bin Landen from his cave

(b) an inside job where

(i) the administration "let it happen"

(ii) the administration "made it happen"


(2) The videos are

(a) authentic

(b) faked

(i) flying what'sits at the North Tower

(ii) CGIs, compositing , or holograms at the South


(3) The "collapse" of the Twin Towers

(i) actually happened as the official account claims

(ii) represented a demolition under control

(a) using thermite and conventional explosives

(b) using unconventional methods, such as mini-nukes or some kind of directed-energy devices



(4) The collapse of Building 7

(a) was collateral damage from the destruction of the Twin Towers

(b) was arranged and brought down by a classic controlled demolition


(5) The Pentagon attack

(a) really took place with a Boeing 757 hitting the building

(b) involved a fly-over by a Boeing 757 which did not hit the building

(c) involved a second, smaller plane that may have fired a missile into the building


(6) The Shanksville crash

(a) occurred just as the government has claimed (into a mining shaft or whatever)

(b) did not occur at all and is just as phony as the rest of the official story


(7) What happened to the passengers?

(a) they were killed in the plane crashes

(b) they were kidnapped and are in undisclosed secret locations

(c) they were mostly fabricated, just as fake as the rest of the official account

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the planes did not hit any of the supposed targets. Missiles were used throughout in my opinion. The only thing I struggle with is how they brought the twin towers down. That i find more facinating that anything else because we all saw them do that and we don't know how it was done (apart from obviously).

[dr rasmonita segarra]

I am responding to today's e-mail. I believe 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by those who had their own agenda; Bush to get his Patriot Act passed, to profit from the Iraq & Afganistan wars and to develope the Department of Homeland Security. Maybe he had some buddies who needed important jobs. In addition the guy who leased the WTC also profited, millions in gold are missing. Insider traders profited from "put options" with American and United Airlines.It was a terrorist act led by Bush, his brother and other cronies and it was fake, as was the 9/11 Commission, a joke.
These people murdered 3,000 innocent people although who knows if even more perished. Not everyone had family to report them missing. There were 2 planes off loaded elsewhere, if they even existed, so that unmanned military or cargo planes and or missles could take their place and then attack TWC and The Pentagon. Videos prove there wasn't enough wreckage at The Pentagon to prove a plane had hit it. Likewise Flight 93. There was no wreckage there, just a hole in the ground; no blood, bodies, luggage, metal, engines, etc. Get the picture? What a nice story for the American people. A plane full of heros. Yeah right! The Middle Eastern scapegoats were just that, scapegoats!
It is my belief that the 9/11 videos proving a conspiracy against the American people are authentic, without a doubt. I was in the military and am familiar how it does things. The WTC and bldg 7 were controlled demolitions. It's quite obvious. The bombs were put in place by the military weeks in advance, not only did they have the knowledge necessary to place these, only the military can get hold of said detonation materials(Thermite). No one else!
No one on the planes died. These were ghost planes flown by remote control.
Nothing was done when it was discovered JFK was killed by a conspiracy. Maybe he wasn't corrupt enough? I don't imagine nine years could make a difference. About a year ago I got that Bush and his faithful paramilitary buddies had pulled off this hoax. I am very depressed at this discovery and am making plans to live outside of the U.S. I'm never voting again either. I am totally disillusioned with the U.S. govenrment. I'm selling my house and everything and taking my dog to live elsewhere! dr r segara Spec 4 Retired USA

[dr rasmonita segarra]

9/11 was an inside job to pass the Patriot Act and for Bush to further his and his buddies' agendas and to get richer.I believe in karma. in his next life he will lead a horrendous existence!

Dean said:

I have a question I would like to submit as a poll for anyone who wants to answer:

What is the most important issue for the 9/11 research community to investigate right now and why

[dr rasmonita segarra]

we're in afganistan so that the CIA can make millions/billions and keep cash flowing in the u.s.! obama is in on it too.

Thoth II said:

quoting Sandy: "okay, any comments about barack obama from anyone at this point? i must say
i am sorely disappointed and a bit surprised at his actions, i don't think the people voted
him in thinking he would do what he is doing. and of course, about 9/11, he does his
look-to-the-future-bury-the-past dance.....ug."

Since you brought Obama up, I might as well give my 2 cents on him. I think he serves 3 masters, and he knows it: the national security people, Wall Street, and the Democratic party. I think he is deferring to his national security people to run that whole Afghanistan-Pakistan horror, and what is left of the neocon war against Osama nonsense. Wall Street: many of the bailouts continued and his treasury people are all Wall Street. But the good thing is, some of the democratic party planks like health care and welfare are good things, that is his main advantage over Bush. But overall, we're still in deep trouble politically with the same basic players behind the scenes. I remember one of those pathetic NBC or CBS Sunday morning talk commentators saying something like: "there are people in Washington who were there in power before Obama, and they know they'll be in power long after he's gone, so they don't take him seriously". When that is the attitude of the national media, what real hope does an individual have of changing the system. JFK saw the pathology clearly, really attempted to change it, and they quickly removed him and his brother.

[dr rasmonita segarra]

i agree 100%!

Thoth II said:

The book that gave me the greatest insight into the forces JFK was doing battle with is:

"JFK and the Unspeakable" by Jim Douglass

He says in preface: "John Kennedy's story is our story, although a titanic effort has been made to keep it from us. That story... is as current today as it was in 1963" . The forces that took him out had to conceal not only the facts of the assassination, of course to cover their tracks, but also the true reasons he was taken out .

He shows how JFK battled with the unspeakable forces on 3 major fronts: Cuba, Vietnam, and Soviet Union, and some of the architects of the asssassination wanted to not only take out JFK but also provoke a war with Cuba and Russia.

[Thoth II]

sure I'll give my 2 cents on the poll questions:

1b (ii) (the LIHOP is almost worse than the official version because it's a canard intended to obfuscate the truth)

2b(ii) (I personally believe it is either CGI or compositing, I'm not enough of an expert, but to me, that CNN broadcast on 9/11 of the hit on the south tower looked from day one suspiciously like the first down marker they CGI over the football games)

3(ii) (b) (I've always thought it was mini nukes primarily , (1) they wouldn't have needed that many and they can be very small, you could easily ignite them from top to bottom of towers, (2) high levels of heavy hydrogen isotopes, evidence of a fusion reaction, (3) I once heard a Dr. say that there were weird radiation induced cancers such as at Hiroshima, (4) the blast wave was primarily from the inside out, so in addition to pulverization of concrete, there was also lateral outward blowing of steel members, (5) my gut instinct of DEW is that it wouldn't have been absorbed in the steel, think of putting a metal spoon into your microwave oven, a midget DEW, it would just spark off and not heat the steel spoon.

4(b) ZERO doubt on that one- that's what went down on Building 7 sure as 2 + 2 = 4

5 and 6, I'm sorry to say I've focused on twin towers, and didn't study pentagon or shanksville because they bored me, but the Barbara Olsson thing is a dead giveaway of the whole thing being faked: why of all people on this earth would a prominent Bushite just happen to be on that flight? I wouldn't believe that in a hundred years. Barbara Olsson, come out of hiding, do the public of this world a great service instead of that petty man W, and expose this charade after all this time!!!!

7(c) again I haven't focused on this much, but I think since there were no Boeing flights crashing into the purported sites, why would any of it be real? No NTSB investigation was conducted to find plane parts, maybe those flights never flew?

[dr rasmonita segarra]

the most important issue is to make bush and his cronies accountable for the hoaxes they ran on the american people and prosecute them for murder, treason, theft and other charges. Second keep false flag operations from occuring again. expose everyone involved!

dr rasmonita segarra said:

9/11 was an inside job to pass the Patriot Act and for Bush to further his and his buddies' agendas and to get richer.I believe in karma. in his next life he will lead a horrendous existence!

Dean said:

I have a question I would like to submit as a poll for anyone who wants to answer:

What is the most important issue for the 9/11 research community to investigate right now and why

[Mark E. Smith]

I think 9/11 was an inside job, the photos were as fake as the story of Barbara Olsen's phone calls, it was done by unconventional means, and the passengers are still alive.

Having worked for a short time as a civilian on a military base, I know that the military uses child molestation to entrap people so that they can be blackmailed and controlled. A child-molesting ring was busted at the base where I worked. A guy had been molesting his grown daughters since they'd been infants and they never said a word because they were some kind of Christian fundamentalists who believed that the male head of the family can do whatever he wants. But they also condemned homosexuality, so when one of the daughters walked in and caught the guy raping his six-month-old grandson, she was afraid that the kid would grow up to be gay and went to the cops. Somehow they'd forgotten to explain to her that same-sex sex was okay as long as the one person was underage. The entire base defended the guy and everyone was so angry with the daughter for turning him in that she had to leave town. He got something like a 6-month sentence, if I remember correctly. The child-care center run by another known child-molester at the base remained open. I got fired for blowing the whistle on overt sexual and racial harassment and discrimination. Of the 3,000 civilian employees at that base, I believe there were three, including me, who weren't married or related to somebody else who worked there and didn't belong to a fundamentalist Christian church. It was a cesspool and was shut down years ago during a round of base closings.

As for truth, be it JFK truth or 9/11 truth, it simply isn't relevant to most people's lives. Those who rely on a government paycheck know enough to keep their mouths shut, go along to get along, don't rock the boat, and never question authority. Whistleblowers are quickly fired and thenceforth described as disgruntled former employees with no credibility. Anyone with credibility is not to be believed even if it seems like they're telling the truth. You can't stay in the system long enough to get credibility if you're not corrupt. There are a few exceptions like Jim and Dave Griscom, but for the most part it's a good rule of thumb.

I've been banned from various websites over the years for mentioning JFK, RFK, MLK, COINTELPRO, MKULTRA, racism, sexism, genocide for profit (the industry this country was founded upon and continues to this day), that slavery was never abolished (try abolishing the death penalty except as legal punishment for a crime, eh?), corporate rule, election fraud, the two-party good cop/bad cop scam, that we never had a democracy or a republic (if you can't hold your elected officials accountable DURING their terms of office, you cannot exercise your will through them--you can merely petition them the same way any subjects can petition tyrants), and other taboo topics.

I'm accustomed to the sort of mass attacks described by Lee, Thoth, and others above, where the moment I say something that isn't on the approved list, I get called names and piled on by teams of political party operatives, disinfo agents, astroturfers, and assorted other cyber-hit squads. I'm accustomed to having whole topics and sometimes even everything I've ever posted on that site deleted. I'm accustomed to being banned, or if they want to be cute, "permanently suspended," which is the same thing.

I don't have any credentials or credibility myself and I never did. but I've been on Jim's podcast and he can tell you, if he feels like it, that I know what I'm talking about. And I'm still learning.

So here's an off-topic for ya.

This country has never had free and fair elections. The Constitution put several firewalls between the popular vote and the Presidency. We have no right of recall at the federal level. Our Supreme court, an unelected body whose decisions cannot be appealed, is incompatible with the most basic principles of democracy. When the only two Presidential candidates with any chance of winning are both committed to wars and bailouts, the results of the "election," i.e., wars and bailouts, are predetermined no matter how many people vote or who they vote for, so it isn't an election. For there to be an election, there has to be more than one choice. If the President can be sworn into office before it is possible to finish counting the popular vote, you do not have a democratic form of government because power is not vested in the hands of the people and the popular vote does not determine the results of the "election."

The Declaration of Independence states that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. They demonstrate this consent by holding elections. Your vote is your consent. It is your consent to be governed by whoever wins, not necessarily by who you voted for. In a recent Rasmussen Reports poll, only 21% of voters believed that this government has the consent of the governed. The other 79% don't understand that they gave their consent when they voted. A vote is not necessarily an indication of democracy. Stalin held elections, he required people to vote, he counted the votes, and he always won. Nobody fought and died for the right toi cast a vote in a Stalinist-style election where there is no way to verify that the votes were counted accurately. An uncounted or flipped (miscounted) vote is not a voice in government, it is not a precious right, it is consent to be governed by people who don't even bother to count your vote.

I'm an election boycott advocate. I don't think that the best way to bring about peace is by voting for war. I think that people who vote, who delegate their power, grant their authority, and give their consent of the governed to officials they can't hold accountable, don't care about their country or even about themselves, are totally irresponsible, and shouldn't be calling people who DO care, "apathetic."

During a President's term of office, they can cause irreparable harm. They can start, continue, or expand wars that kill millions of people, torture people they know to be innocent, allow the environment to be polluted in ways that can never be cleaned up, such as with depleted uranium, and such harms cannot be undone by voting for somebody different in a subsequent election. The dead cannot be brought back to life, the broken cannot be untortured, and the toxins in our air, food, water, and in our bodies and our children's and grandchildren's bodies, cannot be removed. Many of those toxins are cumulative.

But the potential benefits to be gained from elections, such as civil, human, or reproductive rights, health care, jobs, etc., are temporary and can be taken away by Congress, the Supreme Court, or a new election. For many, the possibility of temporary benefits outweighs the risks of permanent harms. These are not critical thinkers.

Those who encourage voting say that if you don't vote the bad guys will win. I guess they believe that our oligarchy consists of good guys because people voted.

They say that if you don't vote, you can't complain. King George didn't let the colonists vote and the Declaration of Independence is a long list of complaints. The right to gripe is an inalienable right, you don't get it by voting. If you complain that you got screwed, the first thing you're going to be asked is if you gave your consent. Your vote is your consent. If you vote, you can't complain because you consented. It may be that you're going to get screwed anyway, but you don't have to consent, and if you wish to preserve your right to complain it is probably a good idea not to consent.

They say that not voting is giving up and doing nothing. They'd rather keep jumping off the cliff than stop, take stock, and consider if they really want to go in that direction. It is better to do nothing than to do something that isn't in your own best interests.

They point to voter purges and attempts at disenfranchisement as evidence that the powers that be don't want people to vote. It doesn't occur to them that while a few million may be spent on preventing people from voting, over a billion will be spent on getting out the vote. The oligarchy doesn't spend a billion dollars getting out the vote because they don't want people to vote. The purges and disenfranchisement are attempts to make votes appear to be valuable. Uncounted votes aren't valuable. Votes in elections where the results are predetermined aren't valuable. Votes for candidates you can't hold accountable aren't valuable. The only value of a vote is that a tyranny can point to the fact that people voted as evidence that it has the consent of the governed.

Our CIA has been rigging elections in other countries for decades. Anyone who thinks they haven't been doing the same thing here, doesn't understand how the people who pulled off 9/11 got themselves in positions where they could control our air space, our media, any investigations, and anything else they needed to ensure that they could do whatever they wanted to do with absolute impunity. Vince Salandria and his group of early JFK assassination researchers nailed it--only those who can control the cover-up are capable of getting away with a crime.

I love open topics. Thanks, Jim and Sandy, and anyone who bothered to read this. ;)

[James H. Fetzer]

This is a wonderful statement, Mark. I would love to have you back on the show to discuss it. Let's work it out.

[dr rasmonita segarra]

I agree withyou 100%! When i finallly accepted that JFK, Robert Kennedy MLKing, Oklahoma City and 9/11 were conspiracies, I gave up on our country. I'm not voting again. It is a sham and a scam. You're right. The CIA/NSA and others do what they want. Whoever has the power can do what he/she/they please, including murder, disinformation perception management, starting wars, assassinate leaders of other countries, etc. I am selling everything and plan to take my dog and move elsewhere. Is there any hope whatsoever that the 9/11 conspirators; Bush and his men(women)? will be charged with mass murder?? r.s.

Mark E. Smith said:

I think 9/11 was an inside job, the photos were as fake as the story of Barbara Olsen's phone calls, it was done by unconventional means, and the passengers are still alive.

Having worked for a short time as a civilian on a military base, I know that the military uses child molestation to entrap people so that they can be blackmailed and controlled. A child-molesting ring was busted at the base where I worked. A guy had been molesting his grown daughters since they'd been infants and they never said a word because they were some kind of Christian fundamentalists who believed that the male head of the family can do whatever he wants. But they also condemned homosexuality, so when one of the daughters walked in and caught the guy raping his six-month-old grandson, she was afraid that the kid would grow up to be gay and went to the cops. Somehow they'd forgotten to explain to her that same-sex sex was okay as long as the one person was underage. The entire base defended the guy and everyone was so angry with the daughter for turning him in that she had to leave town. He got something like a 6-month sentence, if I remember correctly. The child-care center run by another known child-molester at the base remained open. I got fired for blowing the whistle on overt sexual and racial harassment and discrimination. Of the 3,000 civilian employees at that base, I believe there were three, including me, who weren't married or related to somebody else who worked there and didn't belong to a fundamentalist Christian church. It was a cesspool and was shut down years ago during a round of base closings.

As for truth, be it JFK truth or 9/11 truth, it simply isn't relevant to most people's lives. Those who rely on a government paycheck know enough to keep their mouths shut, go along to get along, don't rock the boat, and never question authority. Whistleblowers are quickly fired and thenceforth described as disgruntled former employees with no credibility. Anyone with credibility is not to be believed even if it seems like they're telling the truth. You can't stay in the system long enough to get credibility if you're not corrupt. There are a few exceptions like Jim and Dave Griscom, but for the most part it's a good rule of thumb.

I've been banned from various websites over the years for mentioning JFK, RFK, MLK, COINTELPRO, MKULTRA, racism, sexism, genocide for profit (the industry this country was founded upon and continues to this day), that slavery was never abolished (try abolishing the death penalty except as legal punishment for a crime, eh?), corporate rule, election fraud, the two-party good cop/bad cop scam, that we never had a democracy or a republic (if you can't hold your elected officials accountable DURING their terms of office, you cannot exercise your will through them--you can merely petition them the same way any subjects can petition tyrants), and other taboo topics.

I'm accustomed to the sort of mass attacks described by Lee, Thoth, and others above, where the moment I say something that isn't on the approved list, I get called names and piled on by teams of political party operatives, disinfo agents, astroturfers, and assorted other cyber-hit squads. I'm accustomed to having whole topics and sometimes even everything I've ever posted on that site deleted. I'm accustomed to being banned, or if they want to be cute, "permanently suspended," which is the same thing.

I don't have any credentials or credibility myself and I never did. but I've been on Jim's podcast and he can tell you, if he feels like it, that I know what I'm talking about. And I'm still learning.

So here's an off-topic for ya.

This country has never had free and fair elections. The Constitution put several firewalls between the popular vote and the Presidency. We have no right of recall at the federal level. Our Supreme court, an unelected body whose decisions cannot be appealed, is incompatible with the most basic principles of democracy. When the only two Presidential candidates with any chance of winning are both committed to wars and bailouts, the results of the "election," i.e., wars and bailouts, are predetermined no matter how many people vote or who they vote for, so it isn't an election. For there to be an election, there has to be more than one choice. If the President can be sworn into office before it is possible to finish counting the popular vote, you do not have a democratic form of government because power is not vested in the hands of the people and the popular vote does not determine the results of the "election."

The Declaration of Independence states that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. They demonstrate this consent by holding elections. Your vote is your consent. It is your consent to be governed by whoever wins, not necessarily by who you voted for. In a recent Rasmussen Reports poll, only 21% of voters believed that this government has the consent of the governed. The other 79% don't understand that they gave their consent when they voted. A vote is not necessarily an indication of democracy. Stalin held elections, he required people to vote, he counted the votes, and he always won. Nobody fought and died for the right toi cast a vote in a Stalinist-style election where there is no way to verify that the votes were counted accurately. An uncounted or flipped (miscounted) vote is not a voice in government, it is not a precious right, it is consent to be governed by people who don't even bother to count your vote.

I'm an election boycott advocate. I don't think that the best way to bring about peace is by voting for war. I think that people who vote, who delegate their power, grant their authority, and give their consent of the governed to officials they can't hold accountable, don't care about their country or even about themselves, are totally irresponsible, and shouldn't be calling people who DO care, "apathetic."

During a President's term of office, they can cause irreparable harm. They can start, continue, or expand wars that kill millions of people, torture people they know to be innocent, allow the environment to be polluted in ways that can never be cleaned up, such as with depleted uranium, and such harms cannot be undone by voting for somebody different in a subsequent election. The dead cannot be brought back to life, the broken cannot be untortured, and the toxins in our air, food, water, and in our bodies and our children's and grandchildren's bodies, cannot be removed. Many of those toxins are cumulative.

But the potential benefits to be gained from elections, such as civil, human, or reproductive rights, health care, jobs, etc., are temporary and can be taken away by Congress, the Supreme Court, or a new election. For many, the possibility of temporary benefits outweighs the risks of permanent harms. These are not critical thinkers.

Those who encourage voting say that if you don't vote the bad guys will win. I guess they believe that our oligarchy consists of good guys because people voted.

They say that if you don't vote, you can't complain. King George didn't let the colonists vote and the Declaration of Independence is a long list of complaints. The right to gripe is an inalienable right, you don't get it by voting. If you complain that you got screwed, the first thing you're going to be asked is if you gave your consent. Your vote is your consent. If you vote, you can't complain because you consented. It may be that you're going to get screwed anyway, but you don't have to consent, and if you wish to preserve your right to complain it is probably a good idea not to consent.

They say that not voting is giving up and doing nothing. They'd rather keep jumping off the cliff than stop, take stock, and consider if they really want to go in that direction. It is better to do nothing than to do something that isn't in your own best interests.

They point to voter purges and attempts at disenfranchisement as evidence that the powers that be don't want people to vote. It doesn't occur to them that while a few million may be spent on preventing people from voting, over a billion will be spent on getting out the vote. The oligarchy doesn't spend a billion dollars getting out the vote because they don't want people to vote. The purges and disenfranchisement are attempts to make votes appear to be valuable. Uncounted votes aren't valuable. Votes in elections where the results are predetermined aren't valuable. Votes for candidates you can't hold accountable aren't valuable. The only value of a vote is that a tyranny can point to the fact that people voted as evidence that it has the consent of the governed.

Our CIA has been rigging elections in other countries for decades. Anyone who thinks they haven't been doing the same thing here, doesn't understand how the people who pulled off 9/11 got themselves in positions where they could control our air space, our media, any investigations, and anything else they needed to ensure that they could do whatever they wanted to do with absolute impunity. Vince Salandria and his group of early JFK assassination researchers nailed it--only those who can control the cover-up are capable of getting away with a crime.

I love open topics. Thanks, Jim and Sandy, and anyone who bothered to read this. ;)

[dr rasmonita segarra]

please tell me what time is this program and what channel. thanks a million! dr segarra

Thoth II said:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2010/09/19

Ours friends at CTC will be featuring a show on conspiracies looks like sunday night. I will be real disappointed if the guest goes down one of those obfuscation roads so common to this field. I do not like the label CT, it implies "kook" and that was originally done by the CIA in the 60s to label guys like Mark Lane to cover their tracks on JFK. They saw it working then, so they superimposed it onto our modern situation, and now the young people , born in the dust, can't sort it out. Those evil SOBs knew what they were doing in terms of confusing the public and neutralizing the opposition. As I get each year older, I get more and more ticked off because I realize now that it was not only my generation they shafted, but now I see the young people and I wonder about their futures too.

[James H. Fetzer]

If you mean "The Real Deal", it is broadcast M/W/F on revereradio.net from 5-7 PM/CT. It's archives may be found at http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com, where there are probably 200 programs on a wide range of different subjects. Thanks.

dr rasmonita segarra said:

please tell me what time is this program and what channel. thanks a million! dr segarra