Open Discussion

[James H. Fetzer]

Sandy has suggested that we have a space for open discussion of topics that may be off-topic. That's fine with me. Let's see if the "Discussion" option will serve that purpose. Please give it a shot. Jim

[James H. Fetzer]

Sandy, The way the forum is set-up, the links appear but are not active. They are important, nonetheless, since each of us can copy and paste them into the address box and thereby access the items linked. Keep up with your fine efforts! Jim

[Thoth II]

quoting Sandy: "okay, any comments about barack obama from anyone at this point? i must say
i am sorely disappointed and a bit surprised at his actions, i don't think the people voted
him in thinking he would do what he is doing. and of course, about 9/11, he does his
look-to-the-future-bury-the-past dance.....ug."

Since you brought Obama up, I might as well give my 2 cents on him. I think he serves 3 masters, and he knows it: the national security people, Wall Street, and the Democratic party. I think he is deferring to his national security people to run that whole Afghanistan-Pakistan horror, and what is left of the neocon war against Osama nonsense. Wall Street: many of the bailouts continued and his treasury people are all Wall Street. But the good thing is, some of the democratic party planks like health care and welfare are good things, that is his main advantage over Bush. But overall, we're still in deep trouble politically with the same basic players behind the scenes. I remember one of those pathetic NBC or CBS Sunday morning talk commentators saying something like: "there are people in Washington who were there in power before Obama, and they know they'll be in power long after he's gone, so they don't take him seriously". When that is the attitude of the national media, what real hope does an individual have of changing the system. JFK saw the pathology clearly, really attempted to change it, and they quickly removed him and his brother.

[Thoth II]

The book that gave me the greatest insight into the forces JFK was doing battle with is:

"JFK and the Unspeakable" by Jim Douglass

He says in preface: "John Kennedy's story is our story, although a titanic effort has been made to keep it from us. That story... is as current today as it was in 1963" . The forces that took him out had to conceal not only the facts of the assassination, of course to cover their tracks, but also the true reasons he was taken out .

He shows how JFK battled with the unspeakable forces on 3 major fronts: Cuba, Vietnam, and Soviet Union, and some of the architects of the asssassination wanted to not only take out JFK but also provoke a war with Cuba and Russia.

[James H. Fetzer]

Thoth II, Yes, JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE is a brilliant book, wonderfully written and very comprehensive on the obstacles and opposition JFK encountered during his brief presidency. I think it is the best book on who and why he was killed. If you combine it with MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, which explains how he was killed and how it was covered up, then you have a comprehensive overview of the case. I interviewed James Douglass, the author, on "The Real Deal" on 15 April 2009, which you can find by visiting the program's archives at radiofetzer.blogspot.com. I am glad you mentioned his book. It is simply outstanding! You are on the mark.

[Thoth II]

A typical incident happened this week which just increases my alarm with how things are going awry . I followed a thread in Phil Plaitt's bad astronomy blog this week, which is loaded with scientists and engineers. Here is a case study. A poster named Neil dared to question the standard orthodoxy that men landed on moon. He listed several reasonable points to argue his case and kept his cool and politeness throughout an extended debate. But almost to a reply, the rest of the bloggers just ambushed him. I wouldn't mind at all if they just argued the case for and against moon landings, but these people just immediately demeaned Neil and didn't listen to his arguments. Finally, Neil got disgusted and wrote:

"I have no doubt disgraceful forces in the USA (including those on this blog), would persecute me with "Apollo denial thought crimes" if they could.

Since these are intelligent science people assailing his idea, this really alarms me. And I've seen this over and over on blogs/forums throughout the years.

People do not seem to understand critical thinking. They engage in groupthink, and see others using "conspiracy theorists" and other derogatory labels. A society without thinking is a society which is inevitably going to go to chaos.

[Jack D. White]

Thoth II said:

A typical incident happened this week which just increases my alarm with how things are going awry . I followed a thread in Phil Plaitt's bad astronomy blog this week, which is loaded with scientists and engineers. Here is a case study. A poster named Neil dared to question the standard orthodoxy that men landed on moon. He listed several reasonable points to argue his case and kept his cool and politeness throughout an extended debate. But almost to a reply, the rest of the bloggers just ambushed him. I wouldn't mind at all if they just argued the case for and against moon landings, but these people just immediately demeaned Neil and didn't listen to his arguments. Finally, Neil got disgusted and wrote:

"I have no doubt disgraceful forces in the USA (including those on this blog), would persecute me with "Apollo denial thought crimes" if they could.

Since these are intelligent science people assailing his idea, this really alarms me. And I've seen this over and over on blogs/forums throughout the years.

People do not seem to understand critical thinking. They engage in groupthink, and see others using "conspiracy theorists" and other derogatory labels. A society without thinking is a society which is inevitably going to go to chaos.

To see my observations on Apollo go to:

http://www.aulis.com/jackstudies_index1.html

http://www.aulis.com/skeleton.htm

If these do not work as LINKS, simply open GOOGLE and type AULIS APOLLO.

Anyone visiting my Apollo site, please comment.

Jack

[Jack D. White]

James H. Fetzer said:

Sandy, The way the forum is set-up, the links appear but are not active. They are important, nonetheless, since each of us can copy and paste them into the address box and thereby access the items linked. Keep up with your fine efforts! Jim

Jim...actually I posted some links below THAT DID WORK...here, I will do it again:

http://www.aulis.com/jackstudies_index1.html

http://www.aulis.com/skeleton.htm

Jack

[Thoth II]

Vince Bugliosi, American tragedy.

Since I've heard so much about the great attorney, I finally decided to include his works on my summer reading list. After rereading several of his books, I've come to a sad conclusion.

He did some great things as LA county assistant DA. I think the greatest thing he did was defend a young woman who a zealous Hawaiian prosecutor was trying to railroad for murder on Palmyra atoll. There were 2 couples on the island, one couple ended up dead, and of course as Vince says "four minus two leaves two" ; so the prosecutors tried shenigans to railroad Jennifer. However, Vince proved that "four minus two leaves one" and he proved that Buck Walker killed them and concealed this from Jennifer, because she was 200 yards away at time of crime and occupied in her boat.

Now I read the short rerelease of his massive tome on JFK ; I wouldn't waste my time with the rest. And I read Jim DiEugenio's review of this book. Jim absolutely picks the books to pieces.

What happened to Vince? I think a case could be made that he cancelled out the good work he did with this massive disinformation tome on JFK.

[James H. Fetzer]

Thoth II, You are right about Vince, alas! You can find my (decidedly more compact!) review of his book on assassinationscience.com in a box labeled, "The Latest on JFK". He has done a lot of good work, but this represents a gross miscarriage of justice. It is a shame he published it.

[Thoth II]

Reflections on McNamara,

During the broadcast of Defense Sec. McNamara's death, I heard one commentator describe him as the architecht of the Vietnam War; again, I think they are scapegoating. Vietnam was clearly the CIA and LBJ's war, and Jim DiEugenio in this review states:

"The war that was unfairly tagged as McNamara's War was really imposed on him by Johnson."

Again, the American people are being denied their history courtesy the MSM.

[James H. Fetzer]

Yes, Vince has gone off the rails at some point in time. You can find my review of his book at assassinationresearch.com, vol. 5/no. 1, which is also archived at assassinationscience.com in
the box labeled "The Latest on JFK". We are publishing Jim DiEugenio's series in the journal, too.

Shallel said:

This guy is a prick! He is a nasty man.

Thoth II said:

Vince Bugliosi, American tragedy.

Since I've heard so much about the great attorney, I finally decided to include his works on my summer reading list. After rereading several of his books, I've come to a sad conclusion.

He did some great things as LA county assistant DA. I think the greatest thing he did was defend a young woman who a zealous Hawaiian prosecutor was trying to railroad for murder on Palmyra atoll. There were 2 couples on the island, one couple ended up dead, and of course as Vince says "four minus two leaves two" ; so the prosecutors tried shenigans to railroad Jennifer. However, Vince proved that "four minus two leaves one" and he proved that Buck Walker killed them and concealed this from Jennifer, because she was 200 yards away at time of crime and occupied in her boat.

Now I read the short rerelease of his massive tome on JFK ; I wouldn't waste my time with the rest. And I read Jim DiEugenio's review of this book. Jim absolutely picks the books to pieces.

What happened to Vince? I think a case could be made that he cancelled out the good work he did with this massive disinformation tome on JFK.

[Thoth II]

Bugliosi's problem might be his background as prosecutor. First of all, he depended heavily on law enforcement to deliver evidence to his DA office. So in JFK case, he is being completely blind to the possible of malfeasance on the part of law enforcement such as Hoover's FBI. Also, all attorneys special plead their cases, and I think this massive JFK book of his is just that, special pleading.

But still, he is a very meticulous researcher, 1600 page book and 1000 page CD footnotes. He is alluding to major JFK works but demeans them when they contradict his case. And this isn't his case, he's relying on Warren Commission and the like. To write 2600 pages that Lee Oswald did it after all, when he obviously didn't, is a massive blunder and looks totally ridiculous.

There is something very wrong with this whole picture. Researchers like David Mantik, John Costella, and many others have told us maybe 95% of what happened in detail. To have Bugliosi, Posner, and recent cable TV programs hosted by Gary Mack, talk about Lee Oswald as lone assassin; after we know so very much; is just sinister beyond belief. It is even more atrocious when I suspect what they are trying to do is reach a new, younger audience, with the big lie. They hope in a generation, all of us from JFK's era will be gone, the new children will grow up with the big lie and that'll morph into the "truth". I see many young people on certain forums talking about "conspiracy theories" (or they say CT) and they are obviously just blending together many disparate subjects like JFK, 911, UFOs, crop circles, etc., under one big umbrella ; instead of critically thinking it out, they groupthink and obfuscate the issues.

One thing, among so many others, that add amazing detail to what we know: I listened to Rich DellaRosa talk about a film he and other researchers viewed of Kennedy's slaying. He said that many of the things witnesses reported were shown in that film: it was in rich color, showed Greer almost hitting the steps below the book depository and then slowly moving the limo toward the center line later; umbrella man furiously pumping it ; a Cuban man actually stepping out in front of the limo and signalling Greer to stop , which he did; Greer now looks at JFK until he's hit in head, then finally accelerates limo out of there ; and he thinks he sees a motorcycle moving to front of caravan. All of this stuff has been hidden in the current Z film.
(My conjecture is that they had to stop limo because they had to hit the temple bone precisely with that frangible bullet so it would enter the skull before exploding, because the temple is much softer than say, the forehead)